Interceptor 5.2 - Page 2 - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old December 23rd, 2003, 07:40 PM
leafsprung
Status: Offline
Ike Goss
many
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 120
David, The cummins powered scorpion has been running for like 5 years . . . its nothing new. If it was going to catch on it would have done it by now. Gasoline power is so much cheaper, fuel injection negates the the diesel's advantage over carbed gassers and its difficult to develop wheelspin to climb those steep hills will a slow reving diesel. They will probably never be as popular in 4wd motorsport as a result. I wheel on trails . .mud, rock etc. I really only wheel one of my rovers so it has to do it all cant really have "different" equipment. Is your truck done? On your avatar it looks like its in pieces?

Kris - Diesels normally run warmer than gas engines and they certainly run hot at altitude, they certainly have issues starting in cold weather. And we'll see who's crying when you have to buy parts for the first time! A rover v8 gets like 12 mpg right? if you get 36 mpg I would be very surprised. 25 would be impressive. Im curious to see what sort of longevity the 2.8 offers as most folks cant run the 300tdi for more than 100K without major service. 2.8 still have that timing belt?

I have driven a diesel powered rover every day for the last 6 years. Driven everything from a 2.0L NA to my current truck with the turbo cummins. Diesel power has a lot of shortcomings people tend to turn a blind eye to when they buy into the "latest and greatest" from ECR et al.

-Regards
-Ike
__________________
I am what I am - Popeye
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #22  
Old December 23rd, 2003, 07:51 PM
evilfij's Avatar
evilfij
Status: Offline
evilfij
I have never seen a rover in person
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: on the internet
Posts: 14,688
"It is impossible to get 8 second times from a stock D-90."

G-tech says otherwise.
I do have somewhat better tires on it, and it has OME HDs on it but they should not matter. On a 97 for sure no way into the 8s, but the five speed gets out of its own way.

Ron
__________________
*not legal advice*
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old December 24th, 2003, 01:22 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Hey Ike,

My truck is together. The avatar is a bad pic under the hood. I know the scorpion is not new, it was one of the first. I don't think that they are ideal in mud but rockcrawling, I think they are exceptional. The day of the slow smokey diesel is over. The Grand Cherokee is going to be coming in with a diesel, also the toureg's diesel won engine of the year, and other companies are coming shortly behind. There are drawbacks to every system but a lot of pluses. Also, they are so very easy to modify. $500 can get a ps to over 500 HP and 700lbs of torque. That will spin those tires!! People have pigeon holed these engines and they are just now getting over the stigma.

"fuel injection negates the the diesel's advantage over carbed gassers" - I am not sure I totally get this. In the end it is an opinion thing. I would not trade my diesel for anything. If I could have my way I would pull it and put in a cummings with a propane injection. Nothing like an extra 60% HP and 40% better gas mileage.

Oh, and the gas mileage. I average 28 mpg on 37in tires. They are just way more eficient! I use it mostly on the Highway though. In the end I would put the engine for all around performance up against anything. Merry Christmas everybody!
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #24  
Old December 24th, 2003, 02:01 PM
leafsprung
Status: Offline
Ike Goss
many
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 120
David,
A great advantage to the diesel is running at steep angles where a carbed gasser will not, will fuel injection you get the ability to run at steep angles as well. You also see a lot more gearing options than you used to for 4wds, who needs the low torque of a diesel with 100+:1 crawl ratio? The significant initial expense of a diesel over a gas engine is never likely to be offset by fuel savings alone. Theres no advantage to a diesel that a fuel injected vehicle with low gearing cant match. And you can set one up for thousands less. Propane, doesnt offer the sort of performance increases you mention. A good friend installed propane on his cummins powered gladiator and he is seeing 10 extra hp and 16 ft/lbs with fuel consumption up 3 mpg. I had considered installing it on my cummins powered rover, but theres no room to fit a tank and with only a modest increase in power it didnt seem worthwhile. It will be interesting to see how many diesel SUVs they sell; at a 10,000 dollar option in the Toureg Id be surprised to see many.
-Ike
__________________
I am what I am - Popeye
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old December 24th, 2003, 02:14 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Good points Ike,

All good, just gotta disagree on a few points! There are advantages to a Diesel that a gas engine can not match. Water resistance, gas milage, aperating cost, and you mentioned wheel spin, at 100 to 1 you are going to be rocket shifting a five speed to get a whole 10mph out of it in order to match a diesel. And, Diesels can be geared too, all of a sudden you have some serious power. I also had a buddy that added propane and got major power gains. Of course, you have to get used to your truck smelling like sh*t! It will catch on, I am betting. Look at the VW TDi it sells for 4 k more than the other Jetta model and they sold so many so fast that they ran out. Used ones were selling for as much as new for a while there! Plus I only paid $3000 for the conversion so I will have it paid for in gas some time, but no, nobody should do this if your motivation is to save money.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old December 24th, 2003, 02:29 PM
leafsprung
Status: Offline
Ike Goss
many
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 120
Advantage of gas milage is negated by initial expense, wading is about the worst thing you can do to a truck, but if you really want to, prepping a gas engine isnt that hard. Just because you have 100:1 doesnt mean you have to use it if you need some wheelspin . . . Your (Im assuming used Tdi) was 3000 while a NEW crate 350 would be around 1400.
-Ike
__________________
I am what I am - Popeye
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old December 24th, 2003, 02:35 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
$3000 for the engine, trans, transfer case, ready to be dropped in, no way you can beat that with a 350 crate. BCB will do it for about $10,000. There is no way to make a gas as water proof as a diesel, no matter how much silicone you use. If you don't use the 100 to 1, you lose the torque, diesel wins, you do use it, you lose the wheel spin, diesel wins. I am just saying, you think about everything at once, and it makes more sense. At least in my opinion

FYI; It was $5000 for everything, sold the old engine for $2000 so the COST for me was $3000. In the interest of full disclosure.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old December 24th, 2003, 03:40 PM
wicks's Avatar
wicks
Status: Offline
Wicks
97 Defender LE SW #44
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 806
The 4.0 V8 actually isn't that bad, I'm just hasty.

I think rover drivers are perhaps a little scared of putting the pedal all the way down. If you get practiced on keeping your foot in a good position, keep the throttle cable well greased, and get used to planting the pedal, it accelerates quite well.
__________________
Wicks | 1st pl Nevada Trophy 2004 & 2003
Currently no Land Rover - hunting for the perfect white SIIA
2015 G550, 73 911s, 06 BMW GSA, 06 Ducati Paul Smart, 73 Moto Guzzi V7sport
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old December 24th, 2003, 03:41 PM
leafsprung
Status: Offline
Ike Goss
many
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 120
BCB adaptor to rover T-case is 850 I donno where you are getting 10 grand. If it was 5K for used parts and you could get 4 New small blocks for that! A decent 350 has more torque at 1800 RPMs than the 300Tdi so I donno how the "diesel wins" It also spins faster so you are going to get the best of any given set of ratios with the gas engine whether you want top end speed, wheel spin etc.
-Ike
__________________
I am what I am - Popeye
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old December 24th, 2003, 03:52 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
The BCB guys will charge you 10k if you drop off the truck and throw the keys to them and say, "See you in 4 weeks". Now we are comparing a 350 to the tdi, well, ok, that is an interesting arguement. But you might as well then compare that engine to the Ram V8 Diesel. Gotta play on an even field. The Diesel is just a way better option to me. I will never own another truck that is not diesel. The mpg, ease of ownership, torque. If you want to go super fast and do not want to pimp out the diesel, go gas. Or, buy a.....car. Anyway, a stock TDi compared to a stock rover engine, in my opinion there is not comparison. Especially offroad. But all I do is play in the rocks, if I was on sand or mud it would be a totally different story.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old December 24th, 2003, 11:19 PM
neo812's Avatar
neo812
Status: Offline
Kris
1985 Tithonus
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Camano Island WA
Posts: 135
I agree with David on this issue. I realize that to some of you the V8 is a perfectly good engine. And I have had both diesel and petrol trucks. I also agree that someone who is trying to pay for the conversion in fuel savings is going to be sadly disappointed. However,I have waterproofed petrol engines,they still will fail due to moisture very quickly. As to the running temp,Yes,they run warm,however all of my Rover V8's ran way too hot in arduous conditions, a diesel is not as prone to this problem. As to engine longevity,I have been around diesel vehicles my whole life,and my daily driver is a Ford Powerstroke. They will outlast a gas engine by twice as long with regular maintenance.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old December 25th, 2003, 02:37 AM
tbmcneill

Guest
 
Posts: n/a
overall, i think the diesels are good motors b/c of the points already mentioned. but, personally, i shyed away from putting one in my truck for rockcrawling (a Tdi, at least) once I did the research on them last year.

the problem with the diesel isn't the HP you 'can' get ... its the HP you DO get at low rpm ... which isn't much in any setup that would fit into our trucks.

Now the new 2.8 with the variable turbo has some promise & may end up being reasonable enough for a rockcrawler (IMO). I was able to ride shotgun with a guy that dropped one in a Disco & he seemed to be able to generate reasonable HP 'off-the-line'.

Quote:
Diesels can be geared too, all of a sudden you have some serious power.
I wouldn't call it power (as in horsepower), but rather an increase in torque. There's no way a diesel is going to match a petrol for off the line power (again, in anything that would fit in our trucks).... which is exactly what you need when trying 'bump' up rock ledges when rockcrawling. All the torque in the world is no replacement for HP when you've got to go vertical. Every other 'advantage' a diesel has to offer in rockcrawling can be duplicated in a gas motor with gearing & fuel injection.

I've wheeled with most of the 'hardcore' diesel-powered D90s in the country over the past year or so & every one of them has problems generating low-end grunt. That said, I'm still waiting to hit something like Patzcuaro's in Las Cruces with someone that's dropped in one of the 2.8s to see what it can really do.

That's not to say you can't rockcrawl with the Tdi, though. Kyle Caskey, Bill Ritchie, Jim Pendleton, Geoff (can't recall his last name at the moment) all run the same hardcore trails all the gas powered guys do ... albeit with a little different driving style & run them well.

well, gotta go ... just heard Santa on the roof....
T
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old December 25th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Man this is fun. Merry Christmas Troy, and everybody! Jeromy, get that thing in and meet us in Las Crusas. Seeing is believing in the end
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old December 25th, 2003, 09:54 PM
tbmcneill

Guest
 
Posts: n/a
David-
are you going to make it cruces this year? you'll have a blast if you do. I hope we can finally meet. i'm still working on the details to make the trip, but hopefully work will cooperate .... though, i won't be there in my truck, but riding shot in Tisdale and Yousef's trucks ... Unless Yousef lets me drive!!

anyhow ... should be fun. There was some talk about Pendy and crew coming, too.

But, Merry Christmas to you, as well.
Take care-
T
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old December 26th, 2003, 11:40 AM
TwisteD90's Avatar
TwisteD90
Status: Offline
Yousef Hamzeh
06 RR SC, 06 LR3, 94 D90
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Colorado & Kuwait
Posts: 1,862
Troy, If I can't make it then the D90 will need someone to take her to Cruces
__________________
World traveler
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old December 26th, 2003, 11:45 AM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,523
Registry
I'll do it
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old December 26th, 2003, 12:36 PM
snuffer's Avatar
snuffer
Status: Offline
Randy Black
'95 D 90 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tulsa Ok USA
Posts: 753
Hmm, different equipment for different terrain. Does that mean sometimes gas is better than diesel. I think LandRover got it about right for the U.S. with the NAS 90, when we start to modify them they become more specialized and compromized in some aspects but thats OK too.
__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old December 26th, 2003, 01:59 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Yep randy, gas is better in mud and sand and snow. No doubt. Hey Troy, I am going to make it but just the last 2 days. I'll buy you a couple beers!
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old December 26th, 2003, 03:07 PM
tbmcneill

Guest
 
Posts: n/a
hey, if you're offering, I'm accepting!! seriously, glad to hear you'll make it ... if only for part of it. looks like there's going to be a good rover turn out.
T
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old December 27th, 2003, 05:11 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Awesome, I'm really looking foreword to meeting everybody!
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:31 PM.


Copyright