Injector pump pulse question - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 31st, 2012, 06:44 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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Chuck
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Injector pump pulse question

While cranking my 300tdi with a ratchet and #1 injector pipe removed, I noticed the fuel pulses out to the injector as soon as the exhaust valve closes. Can't find details in shop manual, but is this correct? I have been suspicious of the hub mounting on the new injector pump.
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  #2  
Old March 31st, 2012, 07:01 PM
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Fuel delivery, to any given cylinder, should be close to TDC of that cylinder / piston. Knowing the "firing" order will help you sort this out. Never had the head off my IP, but is it designed so that it could be placed on in one of 2 OR 4 ways? I'll assume you have the belt timing and IP timing in sync.
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Old March 31st, 2012, 07:12 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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1-3-4-2.
Yep, timing mark on cam gear lines up with casting mark, locking pins in IP and flywheel.
I have done a full top-end rebuild with new injectors, head, valves, etc.
When cranking by hand and watching my home-made protractor on the harmonic balancer, the valves seem to be opening and closing very close to the shop manual specs.
Seems that the IP should pulse to the injector on the compression stroke, very near the top of the stroke, not on the down (intake) stroke after the exhaust valve closes.
Trying to so some math to figure out exactly how far out the IP is.
I think the hub (cog) on the IP was mounted some degree off.
Exhaust valve is supposed to close 13 degrees ATDC. Inllet valve is to close at 42 degrees ABDC. I would think the injector should fire somewhere around 10 degrees BTDC.
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  #4  
Old March 31st, 2012, 07:34 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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For what its worth...when the fuel pulses to #1 cylinder, my timing pin slot in the ip is almost 180 degrees out. hard to tell exact degree but it sure aint lookin right to me.Guess I'll be pulling the ip tomorrow...
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  #5  
Old March 31st, 2012, 07:45 PM
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The head of the IP is the place where the 4 fuel injector lines come out. Is it possible the head is out of turn, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 ? What you might do is loosen the injector lines at the IP, charge (+) up the IP solenoid (so it has fuel), turn the crank like you have been doing & take note of the positions on the head where the fuel is coming out while noting the TDC of the cylinders. I would think it (the IP) fuel delivery would be rotationally in order (sequential) on the IP. Then if you know what the "firing" order is you can figure out when each cylinder is at TDC and should receive fuel from the port on the IP that shooting out fuel. You may want to leave the fuel lines and nuts attached as the fuel coming out the IP head ports is under great pressure. This process may be messy with the fuel coming out at the IP, so have some rags ready.

UPDATE.

Thinking about this a little-more, on all my my IP's (Bosch VE's) the solenoid is always facing up, on top of the IP head, so your lines on the IP must be out of firing sequence order if your solenoid is mounted up.
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Old March 31st, 2012, 08:36 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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I already "pulse-tested" the ip with the injector lines cracked open to verify firing order. Just discovered today that the timing pin slot is at about 5:00 when fuel pulses, instead of just prior to 11:00, which is where the timing pin will slip in to the pump(clock references relate to crank, not ip).
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  #7  
Old March 31st, 2012, 08:46 PM
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So is your IP rebuilt or is it "new to you" ?
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  #8  
Old March 31st, 2012, 09:32 PM
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Rebuilt.
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  #9  
Old March 31st, 2012, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfin' Elvis View Post
Rebuilt.
I've only had one VE apart myself to replace leaking seals in 2005, for a 6 cyl 524td. They're really quite simple inside. Can't remember if there's an internal point where you could reassemble it 180* out of proper sequence. I'd look for a schematic on the VE's to test this thought. I think there is a point by the rollers and cam plate where the 2 separate along the main axial shaft and could possibly be out 180*, but having some experience with German engineering, I doubt it. I'll get my VE book out of hibernation.

I have Bosch's 2003 ed. of "Distributor-Type Diesel Fuel-Injection Pumps", and it does look possible to get the input shaft (belt drive), out of sync with the cam plate (pg's 23, 26), hence the belt toothed gear key would be 180* out.

Send a PM off to Pendy, maybe he has a smart phone to alert him to messages. He's probably had several apart.
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  #10  
Old April 1st, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Well, well, well...it appears that the ip cog just presses on the input shaft, allowing endless possibilities for screwups at the rebuild place. I pulled the cog of the shaft with a pulled and rotated it slightly less than 180 degrees and the motor fired up and ran real rough. Not enough adjustment in the ip pulley to get the timing just right, so again I tear off the front cover. You think I'm just a little pissed right now???
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  #11  
Old April 1st, 2012, 12:20 PM
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Find a local pump shop and have them set the pump timing. The pump ID #'s will give them some information. Identify the the #1 delivery valve for the shop. They can read the lift setting and set it to the same on the correct delivery valve.
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  #12  
Old April 1st, 2012, 12:33 PM
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If it where me I would have that Pump shop check the other specs on the "rebuild" to see if you got what you paid for. If so after the timing is set correctly, should be good. Guess perserverance paid off for you. Congrats.
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  #13  
Old April 1st, 2012, 01:34 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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I will be returning the pump. I have now officially wasted 4 weekends of my life that i cant get back. Smarter for it but really pissed.
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  #14  
Old April 1st, 2012, 05:25 PM
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I would look at it as a glass half full. Smarter for it.

Keep us posted.
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  #15  
Old April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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Gotta give Pendy a big thank you. He was kind enough to take time to call me and walk me through a series of troubleshooting exercises.
Damn I miss my old Mercedes.
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  #16  
Old April 1st, 2012, 07:10 PM
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Right next to yours Briggs

You old tailpipe expander
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  #17  
Old April 10th, 2012, 08:34 PM
Surfin' Elvis
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It's alive, it's alive!!!!!
New ip arrived. Installed exactly as rebuilt pump had been installed. Bled ip through return banjo (thanks pendy), motor fired right up, confirming my suspicions that the rebuilt pump had been timed wrong.
Now to burn off all that oil in my exhaust system!
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