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  #1  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 09:22 AM
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Hydraulic winches

Anyone has ever fit an hydraulic winch to a 200tdi defender 110? I wish to fit one to mine for forestry work (i.e. retrieving tree, pulling logs ect..) I thought about using the power steering pump that is already in place but not convinced yet. Maybe fit another power steering pump (same unit as in the vehicle). Maybe modify the water pump pulley to put another strap that spin the pump. let say with the pump on the left part of engine. in front of the injection pump.. Any ideal or experience? I want something fail proof....
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  #2  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 11:12 AM
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My NAS 3.9 came with a milemarker 9k hydraulic on it already. But the power steering pumps on Defenders just do not get anywhere near the performance that would make it viable. You would have to go with a different pump somehow.

One option from the UK is a second, higher powered, power steering pump that drives only the winch.
4x4winches.com has a number of setups. This is probably the best option for occasional use and easiest usable system to install.

If you're really going to be using the hell out of it, and you haven't already used the PTO on your transfer case, you can get a PTO driven pump. Of course, there's a lot more ancillary equipment you'll need in this case such as a cooler, reservoir, etc.... but this would be the best performing system. The trick is finding the PTO pump. Again 4x4winches does offer them, I think they are using old stock from Maxidrive, but may be using other systems. I also found a Turkish company called Kozmaksan (sp?) that makes adapters for the LT-230 for around $600 (just the pump adapter, no pump or plumbing). No idea on their quality, but not many other options out there at the moment. Spendy, takes up a lot of volume in the truck for the equipment, but this will be the most powerful and failproof setup possible.

From time to time you'll see hydraulic PTO's turn up on Ebay.co.uk but they go pretty high, be prepared to spend.

-Hans
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  #3  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Maybe I should go another route? Electric winch? Mechanical? I've been offered a capstan that attach to the crank shaft bolt. But I would also use it for own recovery without the fuss of needing to be 10 persons to operate the thing!
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 12:02 PM
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For logging work, I would be afraid of frying the winch in short order. They just can't operate at that kind of duty cycle.

A mechanical capstan winch has potential, but how are they for self recovery?

-Hans
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 03:47 PM
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Did you look at this? http://www.milemarker.com/resources/35kit_app.html
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 04:02 PM
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You want a superwinch/fairey PTO driven winch.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 04:56 PM
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Hans is on the money. Nothing beats hydraulic for logging work but it gets pretty expensive to rig up on a truck. The PTO winches work well too, simpler install. The capstan winches suck for logging in the snow, the rope will get frozen and slip.

the adapter for a hydraulic pump on the LT230 is not really that difficult to make. I would bet your local machine shop could make something. If you are stuck, I am in Ottawa and could mill an adapter up. Princess Auto has cheap aluminum body pumps that work well, I use one on my backhoe at 25 gpm at 2000 rpms. By the time you get the hoses, a good sized reservoir, a pump, an adapter, etc etc etc, the PTO winches are cheap, but you can probably piece together a system with some use of used/surplus parts for decent money.

Edit - I have logged some stuff with an 8274. The biggest issue is to get it the correct voltage. Most alternators do not come close to putting out enough juice at idle. If you are serious about using an electric winch, get a good one (8274 or a variant, 8200, Bellview) and feed it the right volts through a big alternator. I use a Leece Neville alt from a city transit bus application, 200 amps but it will put out 140+ at idle. Most of the aftermarket hi amp alts don't do much at idle. I have found that the way to get real useful power is to go for a much larger case alt - Class 8 truck, bus, etc.

I gave up on winching logs. I now drag them out in the snow with a snowmobile.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 11:12 PM
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Seems like hydraulic is pretty good but, a bit complicated. Is there any mechanical winch for a defender?
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 09:12 AM
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I believe there was/is one available in the UK. Not so common here in the US though.

-Hans
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  #10  
Old December 23rd, 2010, 11:33 AM
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I do not recommend skidding with a winch, just too much to go wrong. At least with the relatively small winch that your truck can handle (~10K). A safer bet is a good chain (proof coil or binder chains) and a set of frame mounted loops (jate rings). This takes the load off the winch and transfers it directly to the vehicle frame.
The only way I would use a winch is to lift an a-bar that had a choker hanging from it. A-bar mounted to a very stout bumper. Then you are only lifting the front of the log ( to clear obstacles) with the winch and not depending on it 100 percent for doing the skidding duty.
If you need to skid a log from a place where you can't get the vehicle close enough, then rig a cable through tree mounted snatch blocks ( open them to release the cable ) to a clear area where you can use the vehicle to pull the cable. Takes more rigging and all, but way less wear and tear on the truck; far safer.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 02:14 PM
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I've got a PTO hydro-winch set up from 4x4winches in the UK.

These winches are really incredible and almost dangerous. These are NOT the MileMarker winches you see here as they have a completely different pump. They are extremely fast and as fast, or faster than the electric winches. These are specifically made by 4x4winches for competition.

I don't think what they use is NOS rather they bought the rights from MaxiDrive and continue to make them......Allen Byrne was the guy I dealt with. Their instructions are somewhat "lacking" but the setup is pretty self-explanatory.

The kit includes the PTO drive, hi-volume pump (this is the secret), the reservoir tank, valve bodies and solenoids, and the winch. It was $2,300 with shipping I believe. This does not include the install obviously.

There is a reservoir tank that has been mounted just to the inside of my battery box and above the tranny. The valve body that controls flow (forward/reverse) and solenoids sit just under the bulkhead seam under the center seat/console area.

The hard part is getting the hydraulic hoses and fittings fabricated and routed. These hoses are big (1") and not very flexible.

The wiring is simple, ie wire to two solenoids at the valve body. Everything else is "plumbing".

I don't think this setup takes up that much space. Think about it.......the hoses themselves take up very little space and run mostly front to back. The winch itself is actually smaller as it has no motor. The valve body is the size of a medium book. The tank is about as big as a large Odyssey battery. This is what takes up the most space but the one they provide is really very nice.

I have not added a cooler but can tell you it gets very hot.

You can literally run these all day long and they will pull anything. This is why this is in my opinion your only real option for your application, ie logging.

I can get a bunch of pics of my setup from different angles.

Bill Davis did some of the initial setup for me and then Jim Pendleton did the final install and tweaks. You can ask them about it as well.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 05:01 PM
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Hydraulics very simple to set up. You need to choose where you will take power for the pump. Can be PTO off back of transfer case (?), belt drive with clutch from engine drive pulley ( about $550) or power steering pump (very very slow)
Hydraulic hoses are very cheap (an 8 foot hose is about $30) You need a supply and a return. Return is usually bigger, like an inch while supply is under high pressure so a 3/8 hose will do. These can also be hard lines. Mile Marker uses an electric solenoid valve to change direction in or out. You could also use a hand operated spool valve or log splitter valve. You need a reservoir. The bigger the better as a larger reserve volume helps cool the oil. Oil coolers help some, but volume is the ticket. A steel tank is about $100. Lastly you need a filter.
If you are handy you can convert something like a Ramsey PTO winch to hydraulic quite easily.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 06:22 PM
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So hydraulic it should be. The PTO look like what? it's a slave dog ? Will I be able to move the truck while the winch is in use?
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Old December 24th, 2010, 06:58 AM
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The previous owner of my 110 told me that it did forestry work in its former life in Switzerland. It has a hydraulic winch setup and I was told it is a Land Rover Special Vehicles setup but I have no proof of that. The pump runs off the engine crankshaft. It turns on and off with a switch and is not affected when you put in the clutch. There is a hydraulic resevoir tank under the passenger seat so it has enough fluid capacity that it can run for extended times and not starve for oil or run hot. The pumps are available in the US, you can find them in the Northern catalog. The winch itself is a Ramsey. I've seen the same style mounted on rollback wreckers. Here is a photo of the pump mounted on the engine.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 08:35 AM
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So the crankshaft pulley is modified to accept another strap. I have a 200 tdi defender unit. I thought about putting a pump on the side where the injection pump is. There's enough space there. But that means customizing the crankshaft or the water pump pulley.. Any ideal?
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Old December 24th, 2010, 09:21 AM
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On my engine there is an additional double pulley added to the standard crankshaft pulley. The two belts only go to the hydraulic pump and do not go around any other pulleys. The pump mount has slotted holes so the pump can be moved to take up belt slack.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNRover View Post
So the crankshaft pulley is modified to accept another strap. I have a 200 tdi defender unit. I thought about putting a pump on the side where the injection pump is. There's enough space there. But that means customizing the crankshaft or the water pump pulley.. Any ideal?
The standard triple pulley (ERR3093) has a groove for driving the A/C compressor on that side and you could use that to drive a pump. I assume you have a double pulley ATM? Just replace it with the normal triple one.

See here: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=9759&st=0 for photos. The big center one is for the AC which should drive a reasonably sized hydraulic pump fine.

Really, for the price, just get a kit....http://4x4winches.com/index.php?page=products.htm
Quote:
200tdi Defender ZF74 System
H12 winch, complete with ZF74 Dedicated pump kit with reservoir and fittings. *£1,150.00
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Old December 25th, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Yeah, I just checked the website and it sounds more like it. The speed is not that much needed but if I can spare an hour a week.... Might just do something relaxing instead of working! The only problem left is the shipping! I'm in Quebec Canada, so a heavy package like that, i imagine the price$$$ Might get everything except the winch, I can have it here downtown.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CDNRover View Post
So hydraulic it should be. The PTO look like what? it's a slave dog ? Will I be able to move the truck while the winch is in use?
The PTO is off the back of your transfer case. The pump attaches to this through an adapter (gear) which bolts on the back of the transfer case (LT230 in my case).

The pump has a lever to activate it. The transmission must be in gear. Usually the transfer case is put in "neutral", ie no drive to prop shafts. Depending on how fast you want the pump to go you then select the gear, ie 1st gear slow, 5th gear fast.

Usually it's recommended not to drive the vehicle while winching. This is a general recommendation regarding winching in general when getting unstuck. You can drive the truck while winching using the hydro setup.

The ONLY downside with a hydro winch is you must have the engine running. So if for some reason you are upside down, side ways, or the engine is not functioning you are SOL. This is where electric winches are helpful. Otherwise hydro is the ideal winch.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 03:08 PM
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So let say I'm stuck and want to use the winch while driving the truck.. If I'm in first gear low ratio, the winch will pull slowly but what happen if I want to change to second gear? will I break something?
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