howling trans or Transfer case? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 9th, 2008, 10:36 AM
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George Kase
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howling trans or Transfer case?

how do I tell whether the howling noise coming from the area of my transmission is the transmission or the transfer gearbox?
George
ps
its an R380 and a stock D90 Xfr box 1995 NAS
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  #2  
Old January 9th, 2008, 10:45 AM
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Its probably both! I wish I could tell you, but I just had a howling t-case that turned to soup last month. Unfortunately, it took the output shaft of the trans with it. Better yet, it did it while I was overseas and I had to pay (a good shop) to do the work - great way to double the price of a job!

Inspect that case quick - I would really like to know how much shavings on the plug is too much though.
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  #3  
Old January 9th, 2008, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gkase
how do I tell whether the howling noise coming from the area of my transmission is the transmission or the transfer gearbox?
George
ps
its an R380 and a stock D90 Xfr box 1995 NAS
Pop the PTO cover off the transfer case and inspect the splines on the transmission output shaft/transfercase input gear. My Discovery (5-speed) started whining, turned howling and when investigated it was the very common spline wear issue. I hope for your sake (and you bank accounts) it is not the case, but it would be my first guess..
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  #4  
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:20 PM
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so, your take is that it is noise coming from the xfr case?
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Old January 9th, 2008, 12:30 PM
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Thats my guess. What I dont like about the inspection cover though is that unless I see something obviously wrong (like chewed teeth) then I dont really even know what I'm looking at. I wish there was some diagnosic routine.
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  #6  
Old January 9th, 2008, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gkase
so, your take is that it is noise coming from the xfr case?
Yes, but if this is the issue, you will need to pull and rebuild the transmission as well, since the transmission mainshaft will need to be replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
Thats my guess. What I dont like about the inspection cover though is that unless I see something obviously wrong (like chewed teeth) then I dont really even know what I'm looking at. I wish there was some diagnosic routine.
Pull the Input gear, it is pretty easy to do through the PTO cover. Hope the splines don't look like this when you get it out, and make sure you replace it with the updated cross drilled gear if you need to. It is not only cross drilled to allow more oil into the spline contact area, but also has a longer splined section in the gear to distribute load better.

P.S. -- I've also heard that overfilling the T-Case a tad helps to make sure the input gear splines (at the high point in the T-Case) get lubricated well.
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  #7  
Old January 9th, 2008, 01:56 PM
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Scott, was that on a '95 D90? I thought only the '94 was prone to that kind of wear?
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  #8  
Old January 9th, 2008, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand
Scott, was that on a '95 D90? I thought only the '94 was prone to that kind of wear?
I don't think that Land Rover officially fixed the problem by installing cross drilled input gears until '97 or '98. My Discovery that suffered from the issue was a '96 (those photos are not of mine, but had been posted here before by someone else, but it looked the same, maybe worse). I don't know that any stateside manual transmission Rovers got the fix from the factory.

Here is the Text of the Spline Wear TSB issues by Land Rover:


"Gearbox Mainshaft Spline Wear

Issue 2

24/05/96

37/02/96/US

SUBJECT:
Gearbox Mainshaft Spline Wear

MODEL:
Discovery
Discovery
Defender 90

AFFECTED VEHICLES:
LPLJ 178205 Onwards
LJ 506525 Onwards
LD 976480 Onwards


DETAIL

Some customers may complain of clonks and backlash in the transmission system. This may be due to gearbox/mainshaft spline wear. The clonk/backlash will be most apparent in stop/go traffic under overrun conditions or when maneuvering the vehicle during parking, etc. From transfer box numbers 28D460996 F (Discovery) and 22D 461124 F (Defender) all factory built LT230 transfer boxes have a revised design of input gear, featuring lengthened splines and cross drilled oil feed holes. This modification eliminates the
requirement for an oil feed disc (bulletin H415) and eliminates input gear/mainshaft spline fretting/wear. Coincident with this change, the transfer box identification number has been changed to Suffix "F".

Information only:
The new parts supercede all old parts and should be used in ALL LT230 applications during repairs.

NOTE: Do not use in conjunction with an oil feed disc, Bulletin "H415 Mainshaft Spline Wear Prevention." If a complaint of transmission clonk/backlash is made, it is likely mainshaft spline wear has occurred. The
transfer box mainshaft input gear and gearbox mainshaft must be replaced together as a pair.

ACTION REQUIRED

If a customer complains of transmission backlash/clonk refer to the
procedure below.

PARTS INFORMATION

Mainshaft/Input Gear replacement part numbers
Manual R380
FTC5087 replaces FTC4188, ratio 1:1.214,28 teeth
(Defender and Discovery)
FTC3703 - Gearbox Mainshaft (Defender and Discovery)

ZF Automatic
FTC5087 replaces FTC4188, ratio 1:1.214, 28 teeth
(Defender and Discovery)
FTC5090 replaces FTC3981 - Coupling Shaft (Defender and Discovery)

PROCEDURE





Follow procedure outlined in Workshop Manual Section 37 "Manual Gearbox", Section 41 "Transfer Box", and Section 44 "Auto Gearbox."

For ZF Automatics: When coupled to a ZF Automatic gearbox a new coupling shaft is required with extended splines. This is a factory fix for all Discovery Automatics and LT230 transfer boxes.

NOTE: If the clonk/backlash is thought to be coming from the transfer box, remove the power take off cover and bearing housing from the rear of the transfer box to inspect the input gear. Visually inspect the transfer box input gear and the gearbox output shaft if visible wear is evident, the gearbox output shaft and the ransfer box input gear will need to be replaced as a pair.

WARRANTY:

Normal warranty policy and procedures apply.

COMP.CODE:

3L9J

SRO:

37.20.88/26 - Input gear and mainshaft (manual) renew 10.50 hr.

44.20.88/26 - Input gear and coupling shaft (automatic) 7.00 hr."


Here is the Oil Thrower 'fix' TSB as well, issued before they started using the crossdrilled input gear:


"You have the oil thrower fix if there is a yellow X painted on the back of the T-case. None of the fixes can be done with an LT77s. This is the PREVIOUS fix. Mainshaft Spline Wear Prevention

29/03/96

H415

SUBJECT:
Mainshaft Spline Wear Prevention

MODEL:
Discovery - with R380 Manual Gearboxes
Defender 90

AFFECTED VEHICLES:LJ 081991 to 172377
LJ 500000 to 504330
LD 939976 to 972378


DETAIL

To prevent occurrence of mainshaft spline wear, an oil feed disc has been introduced into the LT230 transfer gearbox which can be retro-fitted to earlier vehicles providing a customer complaint of transmission backlash/clunk is not evident This disc is a preventative measure only and will not cure existing spline wear induced "clunk" without other component changes. All transfer boxes from the above VIN numbers LJ72378, LJ 504330 and LD 972378 that are fitted with a feed disc at the factory are identified with a yellow "X" painted on the power take off cover so external confirmation of repair is visible, dealers should also apply this paint identification to identify completion of repair and to prevent this work being carried out again.

NOTE: Vehicles fitted with a LT77S manual gearbox CANNOT utilize this fix. Transfer boxes from suffix "F" will be fitted with a production solution which entails additional oilways in the transfer box input gear (detailed in Bulletin 37/02/96/US). Vehicles fitted with suffix "F" gearboxes cannot be fitted with the oil feed disc.

ACTION REQUIRED

At the earliest opportunity fit the parts listed below to all R380 vehicles, providing no customer complaint of backlash/driveline clunk is evident.

PARTS INFORMATION

FTC4993 - Oil feed disc (Qty. 1)
FTC4994 - "0" ring (Qty. 1)
STC611K - Hylosil sealant (Qty. 1)

NOTE: This fix cannot be fitted to LT77 or LT77S manual gearboxes.

PROCEDURE

See Workshop Manual for removal of the P.T.O. cover and bearing plate.

1. If during fitting of the oil feed disc, advanced spline wear is noted, both the gearbox mainshaft and the transfer box input gear should be replaced (if the replacement transfer gear has oil holes into the spline, an
oil feed disc will not be required, see Bulletin 37/02/96/US).

2. Assemble "0" ring onto disc and locate disc into bearing housing ensuring cut outs are aligned and disc ID "TOP" is at the top of the disc.

3. Rebuild referring to Workshop Manual, cleaning off all traces of old sealant.

4. Paint a yellow "X" on the power take off cover.

Note: Do not rebuild with grease - if spline lubrication is required, use only transfer box oil.

NOTE: For guidance on repairs to resolve customer complaints of transmission backlash refer to Technical Bulletin 37/02/96/US.

WARRANTY:

Normal warranty policy and procedures apply

COMP.CODE:

H415

SRO:

H415 - Fit oil feed disc 0.90 hr.

NOTE: If any additional mainshaft wear is noted replace parts and claim
through normal procedures."
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  #9  
Old January 9th, 2008, 04:10 PM
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Input Gear

JeepEytr wrote...
Pull the Input gear, it is pretty easy to do through the PTO cover. Hope the splines don't look like this when you get it out, and make sure you replace it with the updated cross drilled gear if you need to. It is not only cross drilled to allow more oil into the spline contact area, but also has a longer splined section in the gear to distribute load better.


Not to show my ignorance, but I have a little gear whine coming from the tranny or transfer case area on my '94 with an R380 & LT230 combo, and after reading all the posts it seems that determing how much whine is too much is all subjective and just north of impossible by postings on a board. I also have a little driveline slop (yet another subjective issue) but I would like to make the inspection you speak of. Specifically with regards to photos three and four, could you go into a little detail about this PTO cover and the steps required to get to the point where one can see the shaft and splines as depicted in your photos?
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  #10  
Old January 9th, 2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimKo
Specifically with regards to photos three and four, could you go into a little detail about this PTO cover and the steps required to get to the point where one can see the shaft and splines as depicted in your photos?
Hey Jim,

When you look at the back of the transfer case you will see a round cover/inspection plate on the driver's side, opposite the parking brake drum/Drive shaft. That is the PTO cover. I believe it has six bolts. Directly behind the cover plate is a bearing support plate that supports the backside of the input gear. It is a good idea to mark their positions when you remove them, relative to the transfer case and reinstall in the same position.

When you remove these plates, you will be starring at the end of the input gear. You should be able to pull the gear straight out toward you at this point, but in reality it may take a bit of finagling to actually get it out.

I'm going to try and attach a word doc with some screen shots of the semi-exploded LT230 and the removal of the Input gear, hope this helps..
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File Type: doc LT230.doc (433.0 KB, 695 views)
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  #11  
Old January 9th, 2008, 04:43 PM
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Scott,
thanks for the awesome info...I'll take a look as per your suggestions ASAP
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  #12  
Old January 9th, 2008, 05:31 PM
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See the pic below if you want to know why it's a good idea to slightly overfill the t-case. The oil channels for the input gear are quite high and could easily be starved of oil.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...d/PICT0004.jpg

Granted this particular one was LOW on oil and high freeway speeds were involved, so it is an extreme case.
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  #13  
Old January 10th, 2008, 08:36 AM
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Thanks for the information. This board is such an excellent resource. I'll be performing this check this weekend. For those who have had to replace the gear cluster and the input shaft, who do you suggest for obtaining the parts and what was the approximate cost of the parts, excluding any labor charges from shops that may have installed them for you. And did I see that at one time somebody just suggested removing the transfer case and/or transmission and shipping them to someone on this board for a rebuild?
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  #14  
Old January 10th, 2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbass
See the pic below if you want to know why it's a good idea to slightly overfill the t-case.
I agree with this! I am able to overfill the T case by just about 1/8 of a litre by parking the rig face down an incline when I go under to top it off with gear oil.

I was even thinking off screwwing on a permanent filler line into the T case with the other end connected to an oil reseviour located as high up above the T case as possible.

I think if this is done gravity will have oil fill up the entire T case with oil getting as high up through the channels that lead to the input gears inside the PTO housing.

I think this should releave alot of friction in there. Anyone has any thoughts about this ... especially possible reasons why this might not work?
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Old January 11th, 2008, 08:43 AM
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I am going to try this within the next couple of days and see if it eliminates the mild clunking. If successful I will post pics.
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  #16  
Old January 11th, 2008, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimKo
Thanks for the information. This board is such an excellent resource. I'll be performing this check this weekend. For those who have had to replace the gear cluster and the input shaft, who do you suggest for obtaining the parts and what was the approximate cost of the parts, excluding any labor charges from shops that may have installed them for you. And did I see that at one time somebody just suggested removing the transfer case and/or transmission and shipping them to someone on this board for a rebuild?

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  #17  
Old January 11th, 2008, 12:50 PM
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Scott, that TSB you posted was quite helpful. Upon review I noticed that the VIN's listed in the TSB are for 1990 and later vehicles. I also compared my transfer case number 24DxxxxxxF to those in the TSB and according to that TSB, my 94 Defender should have the updated cross-drilled shaft. Again, I plan on snooping into the innards this weekend, I have a little anxiety about what I may find, as I don't have a clonk, but I do have excessive backlash. What I'm wondering is, when it comes specifically to Defenders, exluding Disco's, how many actually have the non-cross-drilled shaft. My 94 is number 933, which is about halfway through the US production run of 1,943. It is early enough that it has the snaps on the outside for the cockpit tonneau cover and it has a fastback top, but late enough in production that it has an R380 and an "F" suffix transfer box. So really, when it comes to just Defenders, I wonder how many have premature failure of the transmission output shaft/transfer case input gear assembly. Or am I missing the boat altogether here, and is the real story that even the updated design of the cross-drilled shaft didn't solve the problems?
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  #18  
Old January 14th, 2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimKo
I also compared my transfer case number 24DxxxxxxF to those in the TSB and according to that TSB, my 94 Defender should have the updated cross-drilled shaft.
Hey Jim,

If I had to venture a guess, it would be that the t-case was replaced at some point, since my '95 d-90's t-case falls under the TSB and had no cross drilled gear in it, nor did my '96 Discovery.
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  #19  
Old February 8th, 2008, 11:08 AM
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I am working on my buddies 94 D-90, it makes a ratcheting noise in the t-case when going high speeds and you let off the gas. I am hoping that it is only the rear output bearing. Any ideas out there? I am pulling the rear shaft tonight to see if it makes a difference. The cast number on the case is 32D321473E. Any chance anyone knows the part numbers for the rear bearing and seal, if that's it?
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