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  #1  
Old October 21st, 2014, 08:46 PM
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Hot rod 200tdi

Ok guys I have been talking to a friend of mine who just bought a 110 with a 200tdi in it. His first Land Rover. He is a gear head and his trade was diesel mechanic. We have been talking about getting more power out of 200's.
We would like to know what you have found to be the limitations of this engine? What type of carnage have you had on your quest for more power? Also why did you have that carnage? Who has really pushed these things to the limit?
Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old October 21st, 2014, 09:05 PM
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You should be able to do 150 hp, 300 lb-ft with a better turbo and enough fueling. Don't go nuts on boost or you will lose the head gasket. Keep EGTs in a safe range and you should be fine. A TD5 is a better base if you want to push power as they will take a lot more.
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  #3  
Old October 21st, 2014, 11:11 PM
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An International HS2.8 TGV would be a better way to go than the TD5.
Basically it's a crate performance 300Tdi.

If I'm not mistaken, Prins Dakar Wildcat was yielding about 450 ft/lb of torque. It took 1st place in its class.
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  #4  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:24 PM
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So, back on topic. I am looking at the same thing. Also a diesel mechanic. The bottom end looks strong enough to handle power. The limits are the injectors and getting a spray pattern that will attomize the amount of fuel needed for 180-200hp. The heads need to be worked over and upgraded studs/gasket is a must.

My current situation is not allowing me the facilities to play but as soon as I get back to the states game on.
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  #5  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solarguy View Post
Ok guys I have been talking to a friend of mine who just bought a 110 with a 200tdi in it. His first Land Rover. He is a gear head and his trade was diesel mechanic. We have been talking about getting more power out of 200's.
We would like to know what you have found to be the limitations of this engine? What type of carnage have you had on your quest for more power? Also why did you have that carnage? Who has really pushed these things to the limit?
Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Abe:
Like most small diesels, the main limit is displacement.

The 200TDI head is a weak link because of the small bridge between the valves.
The 300TDI head will fit the 200 and is an upgrade to consider along with the head bolts Les mentioned.
The 300TDI Discovery manual IP has a separate fuel enrichment lever on the side of the pump that you might consider as well as it will also fit the 200.
You may want to talk to ACR and Turner in UK.
Since the 200TDI shares the same basic 5-main block as the 2.25/2.5 petrol, it will be worth while to understand what they did to increase a 2.25 petrol out to 2.8 liters.
I don't know the particulars, but seem to recall that it required a special crank and or rods, but could be wrong.
When I spoke to them many years ago (when I was trying to increase a 2.25 petrol to a 3.0 liter displacement), they were NOT using the international stroked out 300TDI diesel crank and rods (which I think may not fit a 200TDI block).

If a larger intercooler and turbo are used, the fueling capacity of the stock pump may pose limits.
As John mentioned be wary of the head gasket.
I am sure there are shops that can increase fuel output to supply a 200TDI that needs more fueling, but don't know of any off the top of my head.

Too much boost in the 200TDI will vaporize the crankcase oil and create a disappearing act that will baffle the best... so make a note if and when you are over 20 PSI.

I have talked to several people who connected a low pressure propane boost with great success that did wonders for performance, but I have no experience overall. Generally they are set to only add propane when the petal is mashed down all the way in 3-4-5 gears.

150HP is a reachable goal John mentioned, just how much do you want to spend to get there is the real question?

Keep us posted as to how this works out.
Someone else's R&D often becomes another's knowledge.
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  #6  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 02:41 PM
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You can buy the crank rods and pistons and turn a 300TDI into a 2.8 liter.

http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/pdf/1...%20picture.Pdf

If you are serious and want answers, ask on the UK forums. There are many people that have pushed and past the limits and many that know a lot about what they are doing. Most have moved on to the TD5 as it is easy to get one and 200 hp has been shown to be a reliable goal. I've never heard of anyone pushing 180 hp on a TDI with long term reliability. IMO, it is the same as people that were doing these numbers on the 1.9 lieter VW engines. They all blew up in a year or two.
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  #7  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 02:52 PM
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The pump should not be a limitation.

My understanding is that there are significant drivability factors that become apparent when chasing big power with a Tdi. In order to have a large enough turbo to see close to 200hp, you lose all bottom end power. 2.5L on its own, without boost, isnt much.

The answer would be a variable vane turbo (which is available, but is still comparatively small to improve bottom end) or twin turbos. I have never seen a twin turbo Tdi. I'm not sure why, but someone must have tried it.

There are also some folks in the UK removing the turbocharger and replacing with a supercharger. This is an interesting possibility for twin charging.
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  #8  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:35 PM
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Thanks guys. This is the type of stuff we are after. Please keep it coming.
He is a Cummins fan and we all know what they can do, but now he is a 200tdi owner and the game is on.
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  #9  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
There are also some folks in the UK removing the turbocharger and replacing with a supercharger. This is an interesting possibility for twin charging.
There are guys in Australia that have been talking about doing it, though probably not with the 200TDI, more likely with the TD5 where you have better control.

Look for "Porny" on the UK forums. He has done some hybrid turbos that increase boost and efficiency without losing bottom end and he sells them if you can get a hold of him...
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  #10  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:44 PM
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Has anyone messed with water/methanol injection on the tdi's?
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  #11  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 07:55 PM
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What about blower over turbo similar to the set up on Detroit silver series of the 80's?
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  #12  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 10:47 PM
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Its good to see the start of what I hope to be a long running thread.

Can you share links to the UK forums?

Anyone hear of the heads/block being o ringed/fire ringed?

https://www.puredieselpower.com/Tech...ringoring.html

What is the safest sustained EGT for the 200? TD5?

------ Follow up post added October 22nd, 2014 08:52 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post

The 200TDI head is a weak link because of the small bridge between the valves.
The 300TDI head will fit the 200 and is an upgrade to consider along with the head bolts Les mentioned.
How would one identify one head vs the other?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
The 300TDI Discovery manual IP has a separate fuel enrichment lever on the side of the pump that you might consider as well as it will also fit the 200.
Is one model year better than any other?
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  #13  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthiford View Post
How would one identify one head vs the other?
Is one model year better than any other?
The 200TDI and 300TDI are different engines, but some parts like the heads are interchangeable. How can you tell the difference?
If you get a picture of a 200TDI head and a picture of a 300TDI head, you'll see a number of differences: valve cover, injectors, injector lines, and so on.
If the heads are bare, the bridge between the valves is small on a 200, perhaps 1/4" or so and wider on a 300, perhaps 1/2".

To my knowledge the year doesn't matter among the 200 and 300 TDI heads... that all of the 200 heads are the same, and all the 300 heads are the same.

It is worth mentioning that the 200TDI heads were NLS the last time I checked.
The 300TDI heads were being manufactured by several different companies and available from multiple sources.

The Discovery automatic transmission 300TDI (manual non-electronic) IPs had the fuel enrichment linkage, but don't recall one particular year over another.
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  #14  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 08:18 AM
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Hey guys,

Great thread!

Could someone speak to the compatibility of 200 tdi exhaust and intake manifolds on a 300 tdi head and vice versa?
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  #15  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300tdi convert View Post
Hey guys,

Great thread!

Could someone speak to the compatibility of 200 tdi exhaust and intake manifolds on a 300 tdi head and vice versa?
switching 300 manifolds onto a 200 requires the 300 head studs (longer) and the two manifolds. I have tried to use a 200 intake with a 300 exhaust manifold as the appeared to be the same but the 300 casting has some reliefs cast into it to clear the exhaust casting that can't be ground out of the 200. It should be noted that if you are using a 300 manifold on a 200 engine a custom down pipe is required, not that that should be any surprise.

I have a customer who has the 200 intake and exhaust manifolds with turbo off his disco engine from where I did that conversion for him last month if anyone is interested in those let me know and I'll put you in touch.
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  #16  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:18 AM
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We will be looking for a 200tdi head soon. A good one would be nice but a bad one will do for what we are gonna use it for.
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  #17  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:29 AM
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Supercharged Tdi:


Some cool vids on YouTube:









The injection pump is the same series as used on many Cummins 6BT's (Bosch VE)

So your friend should be very familiar with it's workings.

Remember though, the Tdi is a stout little engine but its not a medium duty truck/industrial grade powerplant.
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  #18  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:52 AM
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Oh yeah, this one goes to 11.
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  #19  
Old October 25th, 2014, 05:25 PM
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My car came with a box of receipts. One is from a company called "The Turbo Centre UK LTD". The PO claims my 200 is fitted with a T28 Hybrid. I have emailed the company in search of more precise spec's.

Also I found a receipt for "stage II" injectors. www.independentdieselservices.co.uk

Not sure what power either would add....

Any idea from those of you who have tinkered with other 200's?
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  #20  
Old October 27th, 2014, 12:11 PM
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So here is what I am working towards:

200TDI fire ringed head, Head studs, New pistons and rings, Mod the pump, new belt drive, T25/28 hybrid turbo, Larger front mount intercooler

Water/meth injection will keep down the egt's.

I really want to mess with the injection timing as most inline diesels come factory with very mild timing.
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