Help with cam timing. - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 02:36 AM
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Stephan Laputka
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Help with cam timing.

I'm sorry if this is common knowledge but i've searched on Dweb and this forum and can't find what i'm looking for. I've installed an rp4 cam and jp timing chain. I'm trying to figure out timing. I had the heads off and positioned the #1 cylinder to TDC as close as I can get it. THere are no marks the the timing gears. Everyone I've asked says "align the marks on the cam gear and the crank gear and ur set." Again I have no marks. I used the position of the old timing chain and gear set up and tried to mirror it with the new set. Since they are different cams I don't know if this is wise. Current cam position indicates both valves on #1 would be closed so I'm assuming it's on the power stroke. Basically at the moment i'm guessing. I don't want to take the front cover off again after reassembly. I can post pics if that will help? Are there markings on the crank for exact TDC? In the absence of markings on the gears how can I double check cam position in relation to the crank?

I've reinstalled the heads. no tappets yet, cam is still sitting loose. What can I do to make sure all is well? I'm loosin sleep over this so any help would be much appreciated. Thanks
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  #2  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 04:06 AM
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Andrew Najarian
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I don't understand how there could not be marks. Are you using new gears? If so I can't believe they aren't there but if you are using orig. gears the marks are definitely there. You have to look real close, they are only about an 1/8" long. I'll see if I can find a pic of what you are looking for...

Ok, Here you can see it at the bottom of the cam gear, it is faint and you have to view the image at full size to see it.

And Here you can see it on the far left.

And finally, Here you can see it on the left on both gears (different style mark on each one).

I can't tell you exactly what you are looking for, but its like pornography...you'll know it when you see it!
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 07:14 PM
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Stephan Laputka
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They are brand new JP timing gears. Can't find a mark for the life of me. I even had a second set of eyes look for em and can't find them.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 09:36 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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Well, I am a little confused b/c according to the site those are pics of the JP timing gears and they clearly show marks. Either you are still somehow not seeing them or you got a set that somehow slipped through the cracks without getting marked? Seems odd. Are you looking at them already installed? If so, you will only see the marks when they are in the right place b/c the chain will be covering them the rest of the time. You will need to turn the engine over while watching for them to come around. Do you have any pics of your gears? If so please post and we can take a look too.

I guess if you need to you could compare them to your originals and mark them yourself. The marks can be easily determined if both the new and old gears have the same number of teeth.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 01:56 AM
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Do you have the gears turned around?

JP
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Old October 24th, 2007, 08:54 AM
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No, I checked both sides. Maybe I'm just completely missing it or looking for the wrong thing. The gear on the crank has markings.. 0 and + or - 2,4. However I still can't find markings on the cam gear to align with it. I installed the woodruff key through the slot for 0. I will post pictures tomorrow and maybe somone can point me in the right direction. Thanks again for the help.
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Old October 25th, 2007, 01:09 PM
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Sorry for the poor quality all I had was a camera phone. So the gear wasn't marked. Got another one that is marked. There is a little dimple on the cam gear which I am supposed to place at say 6 o'clock position and the corresponding mark on the crank gear at 12 o'clock, right? There are multiple keys on the crank gear labeled -6 to +6 on the inner edge of the gear corresponding to the key hole immediately to the right. On the outer ring is the same numeric scale however it's offset to the left by about a half inch. Two questions:

1) Do I align the dimple on the cam gear with the inner or outer scale? I'm guessing outer?

2) what are the different settings for? I figured I would set it to the zero mark.. is this correct?

Lastly. Are there any special oils other than motor oil used for lubing the new cam upon installation? My cam doesnt turn very easily despite the generous amounts of motor oil I placed on both the cam on corresponding contact points with the block.
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Old October 25th, 2007, 06:07 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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As for lube, they make engine assembly lube that you can probably pick up at any auto parts store. The different marks are there for you to advance/retard the cam timing. You should really talk to someone who knows these engines and explain exactly what you have done to it to determine if you want to use a different setting.
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Old October 25th, 2007, 06:22 PM
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I would stick with the "0" position. I built one 3.9 years ago with the +6 which is an advance setting that is supposed to result in more horse power- it does but you loose low end torque and the engine needs to be in the 3500 rpm+ range to make that extra hp. The -6 is supposed to give you more low end torque at the sacrifice of hp. Stick with the middle position.
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Old October 25th, 2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Crowther
I would stick with the "0" position. I built one 3.9 years ago with the +6 which is an advance setting that is supposed to result in more horse power- it does but you loose low end torque and the engine needs to be in the 3500 rpm+ range to make that extra hp. The -6 is supposed to give you more low end torque at the sacrifice of hp. Stick with the middle position.
Wouldn't that all depend on the actual cam being used though?
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Old October 25th, 2007, 11:25 PM
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Stephan Laputka
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That's what I figured was the best decision. So you only have bad things to say about advancing the timing? or retarding it for that matter.. it's a piper rp4. The car has a 4.6 in it and the one area I really wanted more power was on the freeway.. hills. You think +1 should be considered?? I wish it wasn't such a bitch to change otherwise i'd just try +6 and -6 and dyno the truck and pick a spot in between.

Any thoughts on which scale to align with... inner or outer? Outer seems to line up better so i'm guessing thats the one but want to make sure.. and the marks should be 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock, correct?
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Old October 26th, 2007, 12:09 AM
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Not sure about the scales or why there are two for that matter...hard to see at all in the pics. Yes regarding the 6 & 12...they should be directly adjacent from each other.
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Old October 27th, 2007, 04:58 PM
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Stephan Laputka
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Does the Woodruff key sit paralell or at an angle. Rpi had photos of the thing angled up towards the rear but I think the manual has it paralell. Any thoughts?
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Old October 27th, 2007, 05:44 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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Judging from their description I would say that you want it angled...check it out.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 02:05 PM
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The cam saga continues... Ok, figured out timing and alignment, woodruff key all is well. gently install the cam after I lube the shit out of it only the find that when it's all teh way seated in it barely turns. I almost need channel locks to move it. I figured there was some debris somewhere. Cleaned everything tried again, same thing. Ran my fingers around the journals and all were smooth except the front one. It was scored and notched. No idea what caused this. The old cam seems to have no scoring on it. I'm guessing I need to change this journal. How do I get it out of the block? Is there a special tool? Anyone have it?

I know the journal was like this when I pulled the old one out, never thought much of it. I thought about just sticking it in, oiling it up nice and hope the new cam would wear into the journal but i'm guessing this isn't the right approach. THoughts??

Follow-up Post:

Further diagnosis... reinstalled the old cam it turns very easily by hand. Coated the new cam with general purpose synthetic grease per directions of RPI and tried installing again and it began to turn easier. It's not as easy as the original cam but I can now turn it by hand and it seems to get easier as I keep going. Think this is just a break in issue?
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