Help needed for non starting, non fuel pumping rover - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old October 5th, 2008, 09:25 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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Help needed for non starting, non fuel pumping rover

Okay, I think everyone has had similar problems with fuel pump, relays, and such. My '95 ST is not starting. It was driving just fine Friday night and then wouldn't start Saturday morning. The motor turns over just fine, but I don't hear the fuel pump (or any clicking from the relay) when the key is in position II. I've been using old posts to troubleshoot for the past 1.5 days but haven't had any luck yet in getting it starting. Here are some details:

-I've got 12 volts at both sides of the 30A Fuel Pump fuse under the hood.
-I don't get 12 volts to the 7.5A fuse block in cab (which as I understand is the step before the inertia switch which is just before the fuel pump).
-As far as I can tell, it's not the inertia switch.

This leads me to the relays. I've tried checking the resistance across the relays to see if they are good, but haven't had much luck troubleshooting them. I went to the auto parts store today and bought a new $9.99, plastic covered, relay which I was told should work. I put the relay in and it still didn't start. On a second attempt with the new relay I could hear the pump kick on for a few seconds but still no start. The next time I tried to start I couldn't even get the pump to turn on. Any votes that I burned out the new/cheap relay??

To be fair I've noticed an intermittent starting issue over the past several weeks. Sometimes it won't start on the first attempt, but if I try again (right away), and this time let the pump prime for just a second, it will start up fine and run well.

Anyone have any ideas? Do I need to order genuine relays tomorrow?? Another thing I noticed today is that none of my dash lights come on when the key is in position II. Are the lights supposed to come on in position II?? Any thoughts that my problem could be caused by a failure in the ignition cylinder or something???

As usual, thanks in advanced for helping to get my rover going again (and thanks for reading yet another 'not start' post!)!!

-Mike
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  #2  
Old October 5th, 2008, 09:43 PM
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Jim Cheney
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I had that problem and it was problems with the actual connectors at the fuel pump relay. Replacing the connectors did the trick.
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  #3  
Old October 5th, 2008, 11:56 PM
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Dennis Meek
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Mike

I'm not sure if this would help but I had the exact same problem a couple of years ago with my 95 D90. It ended up being a wire had come off the coil. It took me a few days and lots of frustration before I discovered it. Once connected to the correct pole on the coil it fired up.

Dennis
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  #4  
Old October 8th, 2008, 12:55 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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Thanks for the response guys. I think the culprit is the two relays. I replaced the batteries in my multimeter and now think the coil in both relays is burnt out. As far as the new cheap-o plastic relay I bought from the auto store, I think it works just fine, but the terminals are backward from the rover ones. So when I had it plugged in and had the key on i could hear the relay turning off because the switch is basically backwards.

My next question is about replacement relays. I found a stock looking relay at RN FOR $43 (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-2...y-efi-v-8.aspx) and a cheaper looking plastic one from AB for$22 (http://www.roverparts.com/Parts/AFU2913OE.cfm). Anyone have experience with the $22 Atlantic British part? It's my obvious first choice but with as fast as the stock ones go out I can only imagine how fast a knock off might go...
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  #5  
Old October 8th, 2008, 02:09 PM
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Buy the silver ones!

Call mike at LR west chester. He usually keeps two of the silver relays on the shelf.

Ron

BTW I need a spare too.
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  #6  
Old October 13th, 2008, 11:17 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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UPDATE: I put in two new relays today and still no start. I've checked the new relays with my meter and they do look good. It is funny that I cannot seem to get any voltage off the relay connectors (the connectors to the relay coils) when the key is in position II.

I also checked what I think is the power to the computer and didn't get anything there either. So.... I think the problem is more "upstream." What can I troubleshoot before the computer? I've checked all the fuses in the box in the cab and the 4 fuses under the hood and they are all good. Are there other fuses somewhere else??

How does the actual ignition work? Is there anything there that could be the cause of problem?

Denis, I think I am beginning to see what you mean about the coil but I can't find any wires that aren't connected. Which wire was off that you reconnected?

I am really at a loss here... I appreciate everyone's suggestions. If there is anyone local that could come take a look I would supply the necessary beverages.
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  #7  
Old October 13th, 2008, 11:46 PM
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Byron Straw
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just a thought, but have you tried jumping the fuel pump at the relay to see if it would start? Have you checked the pressure in the fuel line when you turn the key on? If all else fails just pull the fuel line and turn the key on (put a bottle in there to catch the fuel, if any) and see if it comes out. If you want I could walk you through some of this on the phone pm me for my number. Don't know if this would help but it's got to be worth a try.
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  #8  
Old October 14th, 2008, 10:10 AM
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Mike Doligalski
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Byron, I have not tried jumping the fuel pump at the relay. I assume I can just put 12V on one end of the fuel pump fuse block in the cab to jump it? If so does it matter which end of the fuse block I give power (the top pole or the bottom)? Thanks.
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  #9  
Old October 14th, 2008, 10:34 AM
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I assume you checked all the fuses?
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  #10  
Old October 14th, 2008, 10:55 AM
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Mike Doligalski
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Yep, checked all the fuses in the cab fuse block and the 4 in the fuse block under the hood. All are continuous. Are there any others?
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  #11  
Old October 14th, 2008, 08:13 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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Question: Should my dash lights (the check engine light, oil pressure light, seat belt light etc.) come on when the key is turned to position II?? If so I wonder if power is not getting to the relays and ultimately to the fuel pump... I can't get my dash lights to come on and am wondering if that's an indication a bigger problem than just my relays.

Any suggestions how to trouble shoot the ignition system? Coil, ignition module, the actual switch in the key cylinder?
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  #12  
Old October 14th, 2008, 09:53 PM
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Byron Straw
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those lights should come on when the key is in position II. If I recall correctly the fuel relay is energized by the ecu when the key is turned to that position. Are you getting power to the ecu?
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  #13  
Old October 14th, 2008, 11:04 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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I don't think I've got power to the computer. How can I tell for sure?
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  #14  
Old October 14th, 2008, 11:42 PM
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Byron Straw
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Here is the diagram for the 90 it should help you. Try a voltmeter or test light on the correct points. Hope this helps a bit.

Follow-up Post:

Sorry you cannot read that pm me your email and I will send it as a file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bstraw
Here is the diagram for the 90 it should help you. Try a voltmeter or test light on the correct points. Hope this helps a bit.
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  #15  
Old October 15th, 2008, 09:26 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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YESSS! Thanks for the help Byron. I actually have a service manual with that diagram in it but that is the just the diagram that I needed. I got it to run tonight!

Briefly: I didn't have power to the computer or the pump relays so I decided to look upstream. I checked at the ignition coil and didn't have power there either. That made sense because I also didn't have any dash lights on. I opened up the dash and found the ignition switch (http://www.roverparts.com/Parts/PRC8230.cfm) hanging a little loose on the back of the ignition cylinder. After playing around with the switch (and ultimately pushing it more securely on the cylinder) I was able to get the dash lights on and heard the fuel pump priming. After one more turn of the key the rover came to life!!

I still have issue that the key wont spring back on its own after the motor starts (thus the starter keeps turning until I turn the key back one notch). I assume the switch controls the "springing" of the key after starting the motor? Has anyone ever replaced one of these ignition switches?? How do I get the old one out??
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  #16  
Old October 16th, 2008, 10:21 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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bump bump. anyone ever replaced one of these? how does the old one come out?
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  #17  
Old October 16th, 2008, 11:11 PM
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Never done just the switch, I've only done the whole ignition assembly last year. PITA to be honest if you have to change the whole thing.

I believe there is a screw in the side of it that comes out, and the switch just drops out of the back of key assembly. Just make sure to keep track of which wire goes where.
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  #18  
Old October 17th, 2008, 02:02 PM
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Dennis Meek
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Mike

When you look down at the coil there are 3 connections on the right hand side. The middle connection, which should be a black wire, was the problem. This wire connects to a small round connection on the junction that sits to the right of the coil.

I would check the continuity on all of these wires to make sure that one or more of them are not faulty due to corrosion or defects.

Hope this helps. I feel your frustration.

Dennis
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  #19  
Old October 21st, 2008, 02:57 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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Thanks for the help everyone. Removing the old switch has proven to be a much bigger PITA that I thought it would. For everyone's edification there are actually two screws that hold the switch to the cylinder.

So i've got the new switch in, and reconnected the battery. When I try to start it now it doesn't quite want to get started. It will "pretend" to run for all of 0.5 sec and then die out. I am going to try jumping the battery tonight to see if I just don't have enough juice there. Is it possible that I got the wires on the switch mixed up (I suppose I should ask myself that... but I guess I could have gotten the wires mis-matched even though I was very careful)? Does anyone here have a picture, or could anyone take a picture, of the wires on the back of the switch? I would be most appreciative. I really need to get this thing running by Friday so I can get down to the URE.


Edit: I do have one post off the back of the switch that doesn't have a wire on it. Can anyone confirm that the switch should or should not look like that???? Thanks!
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  #20  
Old July 25th, 2009, 10:05 PM
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Clark Bowen
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Mike.....

I'm having a similar starting problem now - how did you finally fix the starting problem?
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