HELP 94 d90 will not start - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 11:29 AM
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HELP 94 d90 will not start

Help please, I searched for a problem. Lots of things about running rough and then not starting but mine was working well just last night.

Not sure where to start. Not had a problem like this on this car. I do not have a owners manual (did not arrive in mail prior to my leaving NC for vacation (in Chicago). I have a small exhaust leak (have the new y cat pipes in NC waiting to be installed when I return). But that should not cause this. We have spark (shocked the shit out of brother). It will turn over and over and over but will not start. I recently put in a optima battery so im sure its not that. I put in a K&N filter in two days ago and it worked great. The morning after I installed the K&N I went to start it (20 degrees ouside) it sounded like a diesle truck for about 20 seconds. Lots of exhaust but then ran fine and has ever since. Drove it 10 differant small trips each trip being 5-40 miles in the last couples days. I also had a oil change three days ago but that should have nothing to do with this. This morning when I was hoping to leave for NC it simply would not start. It was rainy and really humid last night due to the storm. I am thinking gas or something with air/fuel mixture. But I am not a mechanic by far. First Land Rover as well. Any help or suggestions would be apprecaited.

Thank you,
Larry
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  #2  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 12:08 PM
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Robert Dassler
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Larry,
Basically an engine needs 3 things to run, air, fuel and spark...in your case, only the fuel seems to be in question, so I would start there. You should be able to hear the pump run with the fuel cap off when someone else switches the ignition on. It will run for about 5 seconds to prime the system prior to startup. If the pump is not running, start electrical troubleshooting to the pump. If the pump is running, make sure that you have sufficient pressure and volume at the fuel rail.
The fuel system takes it's injection trigger signal off of the coil negative side...it is the wire that runs back across the rocker cover...occasionally these connections will become loose and cause either a loss of injector signal or spark...especially in wet/humid weather...check that the coil connections are clean and tight. Also, since the 94s have the ECU located in the passenger kick panel, they can be subject to water ingress in wet conditions (i.e. water leaking into the cabin overnight in the rain)...I would check that the check engine light is coming on and going off when the ignition is switched on and maybe eyeball the ECU to make sure it is not full of water. A flooded ecu can cause the problem you are having. If it is, it can be carefully dismantled and dried out...just take precautions against static electricity.
Good luck, Rob
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  #3  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 12:20 PM
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Checking into these now.

Rob,

Thanks I will be checking those right now. Apprecaite your imput. I will let you know if it solves my problems. Have you heard negatives about the K&N filter? I have always used them for the extra horses so to speak in mustangs. These d-90's are slightly differant then a suped up mustang.

Thanks again,
Larry
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  #4  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 12:37 PM
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I had a similar problem a couple of months ago right after 2 days of very hard rain. I pulled the ECU out and it appeared to be dry. In addition, I checked all of the fuses in the fuse box and in the engine compartment as well as some of relays. After checking everything, it started and ran great. So I am not sure what the exact problem was, but it has not repeated, even after a few hard rains. Knock on wood.

If you do a search, there a couple of similar threads that may help you. Good luck.
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  #5  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 12:39 PM
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Robert Dassler
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Larry,
I have run the K&N in my own Rovers but have switched back to stock. I never could tell a power difference and I didn't like the oil getting into my airflow meter. The hotwire airflowmeters on the d-90s seem to tolerate it but the newer thick film airflow meters on the D2s get contaminated and screwed up with the oil. My personal opinion is that you will probably not hurt the D-90, but the HP benefit isn't worth the cost. Also, the cost of the K&N cleaner/oil kits and the time you spend doing it right (i.e. letting the filter air dry after you clean it instead of blowing it out with compressed air) do not save significant money in the long run over just replacing a dirty stock element...IMHO
Cheers, Rob
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  #6  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 01:21 PM
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Fuel pump relays (the two silver ones, one is perhaps the ECU relay I forget but it is the two silver ones)

Fuel Pump

ECU
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  #7  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 02:40 PM
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Not fuel pump

I have had this vehicle for just now going on two months. So if I appear incredibly stupid with my questions bear with me please. My typing as well since the more frustrated I get the less grammer and spelling seems to matter.

Fuel pump is working or at least I can hear it. It almost seems to fire but then just turns over again. Leading me to think no fuel. I can not smell fuel either. So hopefully its the fuel filter. I am off to get a new fuel filter from autozone.

Check engine lights come on and all lights on dashboard as well. Normal lights when the truck is being started. When the key turned to the on position the all just stay on.

The entire tub of the cab has been rhino lined so im not sure about moisture being an issue. Could make it more of a issue or less. I do not know at this point. I do seem to have moisture on the floor board but that comes in from the soft top doors. Does not seem or appear to leak over or behind dash, but then again I can not see behind those parts.

I am having a hard time getting to the ECU. I do not seem to have anything other then dust from what I can see. It is stuck behind the ac, which is about 75% apart now. Can not seem to find the one or two screws holding it in place. I can see the release on the right side of it but not the left. I was hoping to be able to remove the main ac box (vents are removed panels on both sides also) but it will not budge. Maybe it is not supposed to.

Checked all the fuses, I could find no moisture. Slight corrosion but nothing major. (not sure if there are some hiding somewhere since I do not have a owners manual or a work manual). You spoke of the two fuel relays. Could you possible give me directions to the locations of them. It would help quite a bit in speeding up the process.

Again apprecaite everyone's help,
Larry.
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  #8  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 02:49 PM
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Dennis Meek
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Check the fuel cut-off swiitch mounted on the firewall. Push in on the top to reset it. You never know, it might have been bumpted to trigger it to off.

Follow-up Post:

One more thing, someone mentioned the wiring to you coil. Double check it to make sure all are tight. I had similiar problem a few weeks ago, and it turned out to be a bad wire to the plus side of the coil. It ran perfect, then it wouldn't start. After several frustrated days I discovered a bad wire going to the coil.
Dennis
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  #9  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 03:08 PM
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Take the little side panel off of the AC and then you can get the ECU out. It is held on by two 8mm bolts. Should have it out in say 5 minutes.

Unplug it and see if it is wet/damp/etc.

The two relays: search and they will tell you where it is on a 94. I forgot.
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  #10  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 04:59 PM
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OK i will check into the two little 8 mm screws. Got the fuel filter also. Hope one of these works. I searched and someone said the relays where near the ecu which puts them behind the ac. As for the fuel cut off switch ill look into that also and I will let you know the outcome.

Thanks again,
Larry

Follow-up Post:

Could it be the fuel relays seeing as I can hear the fuel pump? If one of both of those were bad then the fuel pump simply wouldnt work correct? Would that be the same for the fuel cut off switch? Not knowing d90's too well but the switch or relays would cut power to the pump therefor not pumping correct? Or am I just a complete idiot? Which is most likely possible.

Follow-up Post:

Got to the ECU. It was not wet or anything. Looked good there is no corrosion on it at all. Also found the two relays. Simply pulled them out they looked good. I do not have anything to test them but again no corrosion or or moisture. Can anyone answer me this? If the relays were bad one or both then the fuel pump would not work. Correct? or Incorrect? I asume the problem is after the pump im either the line (fuel filter) which is going to be replaced in about a hour. Or something with the computer. If the "fuel cut off switch" which I can not find, is on somehow, how does it work? Common sense says the cut off switch kills power to the fuel pump therefor not allowing it to turn on. I can hear mine therefor telling me that should not be the problem. I am trying common sense here so I could be way off.

Thanks again in advance for the feedback,
Larry.
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  #11  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 07:49 PM
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Fuel Filter changed, STILL NOT starting

Changed the fuel filter. I know there is gas getting to that point because I turned the ignition key while it was disconnected and fuel is flowing. Can anyone answer me with the "cut-off switch". I have not been able to find any switch in the spot listed for it. I have a 94 so I guess it is differant then 95 & 97. But again, the cut off should affect the pump and I have plenty of FLOW. Enough so that is shot almost past the front tire. I was impressed.

Any other suggestions. I will check the coil tomorrow. If I am spending the money for a coil wouldnt it be worth it just to get a MSD or Excel? Let me know and thanks again for all the help today. I wouldnt have known where to start.

Thanks again,
Larry
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  #12  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 08:34 PM
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Christopher Stanish
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Are you positive that you have air flow in to the engine? you seem to have checked, eliminated a lot of other issues. I am no expert, just trying to help. I seem to remember some one saying that the cutout switch is behind the fusebox , but I could be wrong. I don't think that is your problem because you have fuel flow. The coil sounds like the next step, along with all the connections being double checked. Good luck with it! I am sure someone else will have other tips, ideas. anyone? .....
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  #13  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 08:41 PM
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Have you tried priming the pump? Turning the key to ignition II several times? That will tell the pump that you are about to get the party started.

I had the same problem on a Disco I, heard the pump running but no fuel. It sounds like the fuel pump has took a nap...How many miles?

I third the K&N Filter issues as well. I use it only when I wheel (not that I have noticed huge strides) however too many horror stories about MAFS being destroyed and what not from the oil in the filter.

Good Luck.
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  #14  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 08:54 PM
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Robert Dassler
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Larry,
If you can hear the fuel pump run then the relay and switch are working. You say it tries to almost start but doesn't? Before you replace any more parts, pull a spark plug and see if it is fuel fouled. It may be that the engine is flooded rather than starved for fuel. To clear a flood condition, disconnect the fuel injection trigger wire from the coil...it comes across from the valve cover and has a black rubber boot on it. After disconnecting it, hold the throttle wide open and crank the engine. If it is flooded, the engine will usually crank for a bit and then fire, sputter and die. By disconnecting the trigger wire you are shutting down the fuel flow but the ignition system is still working allowing you to clear the flood condition. Reconnect the trigger wire and the truck should start. The fuelling map on these trucks is set up to run rich at cold start to help light off the cats. The original fuel map was a bit aggressive and would occasionally result in a flooded engine under certain conditions. Newer PROM chips had a revised map that was less aggressive. Try this before doing anything else...I've had these truck flood cold, hot at high altitude (10,000 plus feet), and sometimes for no seemingly fathomable reason.
If doing this does not result in the truck starting and you are sure you have spark at the plugs and fuel at the fuel rail (32psi), then you will have to see if the injectors are firing. I think the injectors are powered all the time and the ecu grounds them to fire them but I'll have to check the schematic to be sure. Try that and let me know and I will look at the wiring diagram.
Cheers, Rob
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  #15  
Old January 2nd, 2005, 09:31 PM
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Rob My understanding was the one silver relay controled the ECU? No?
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  #16  
Old January 3rd, 2005, 12:16 AM
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Still searching for answers

Air Flow, I am not completely sure there is air flow or enough air flow. However, you can feel it sucking air in the snout of the air filter holder thingy. I recently put a K&N filter in 2 days ago and its pretty simple to install them. Stick it in the whole and tighten the nut. Have thought it could be related but it ran fine up until not starting. There was no bogging down or anything along those lines. Accept the second time it was started with the K&N and it ran like shit for 20-30 seconds. From that point on it worked great. I will try putting the original one back in and see if that makes a differance. I am a huge believer in K&N but that was on more than stock mustangs. Could get close to 50 extra horse power. I did notice a small effect in the d90 but it was not nearly the same (extremely disapointing). I think however with a combination of a flowmaster 3 chamber, the air filter, and high pro coil it could equal maybe 30-50 total. Which sucks but better then nothing. But again I may be completely wrong there and it doesnt matter if the damn thing will not start.

Priming the pump, this I have not done correctly I am sure. I did however try what you suggested right after I changed the fuel filter but only maybe 2 times. But I will try that again but do it more like 50 times. And let you know the out come. It just hit 51,000 miles also. But again I before I hooked up the fuel filter I started it. If the fuel pump had taken a nap I do not think it would have shot gas almost past the front tire. It sprayed it about 3 1/2 feet in a straight stream instantly on turning the key. Lots of preasure so I dont think its the fuel pump. But air in the line is a definate. So I will try the priming. Are there any other ways to remove air from the fuel line? I could also be wrong about the fuel pump. Maybe it should be shooting it over to my brothers mini van and marking its territory.

I will also try the fuel injection trigger wire and let you know the outcome.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help you guys/gals are great,
Larry

Follow-up Post:

Priming didnt work. Tomorrow am I will work on the coin and the injection wire and see if its really flooded. Again I just wanted to say thank you for all the help.

Thanks again,
Larry
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  #17  
Old January 3rd, 2005, 01:02 AM
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Robert Dassler
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Larry & Ron,
There are 2 identical silver relays located near the ecu. One supplies power to the fuel pump and O2 sensor heater circuits. The other supplies power to the ECU, all fuel injectors, airflow meter, and data display. The fuel injectors are supplied a constant 12v by the relay and are bank fired by the ecu by supplying ground. If the truck still won't run after repriming the fuel system (key on, fuel pump runs, key off, wait 10 sec for ecu to reset--do this 3-4 times) and you verify that it is not flooded, I would unplug a fuel injector and check for power with the key on at one wire and a pulsed ground signal while cranking at the other. Also, the check engine light should come on with the key and then shut off after about 5 seconds...if the check engine light is staying on then there is a code stored in the system...read it off of the data display...it will probably be helpful. If all is well the data display will show 02. Keep in mind that the fuel pump and EFI relays are special in that they have 2 outputs...both pin 87 and 87a are powered when the relay is switched on. A generic 5 pin Bosch style relay from the auto parts store may look the same but probably won't work as most power pin 87 when switched on and pin 87a when switched off. If you suspect a bad relay and elect to change it, make very certain that you have an exact replacement...get it from the dealer.
Hope tomorrow is a better day,
Rob
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  #18  
Old January 3rd, 2005, 01:22 AM
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ok,

Rob thats what I thought.

Here is the process via the Ron hack method (I call it this because i have no computer tools so I have to do everything by way of process of elimination):

If it was just flooded an overnight sitting would clear it.

1st as a quick hack method. Unplug the MAF. I don't think this will do anything but it will rule out the K&N as a cause. Try starting, if it does not start then go to the steps.

2nd you can either pull the injectors as Robb said or in my hack method switch the two relays. If after the switch the fuel pump does not run then you have isolated the relay as the issue. Replace.

3rd Now ECU. Remove look and see if it is wet. If it is dry it out. Ideally find a buddie with a 94-95 disco or RRC or 94-95 D90 and swap

Both 2 and 3 seem unlikely if the check engine light comes on. If they check out, and you say you have spark, then you would have to go onto things like timing issues with the spark. IE dizzy, busted cap, bad rotor, wet wires etc.

The only other thing I have seen cause an issue like this is a bad O2. You could try to unplug them (from the harness) and start the vehicle.
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  #19  
Old January 3rd, 2005, 09:56 AM
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Morning update

OK, tried the priming again. It seemed to help but the truck still will not start. I am not sure how to explain it in words what its doing. When you turn the key you hear the starter motor starte to crank, then you hear the engine rolling over, then it usually starts. We seem to be stuck between steps 2 and 3. Its more then cranking but not starting. Maybe they have a term for this, my term is simply f-ed up. When we unpluged the injection wire to check on the flooded part it seemed to be almost at starting (closer then before). But again it just gets right there and nothing. We are going to check the relays by switching them. I do not have a computer to check the coding or the knowledge to do that either. We are also going to pull a plug and check them as well. Next step I think after this would be to get a new coil? Then back to a question from yesterday is a high pro coil better or not?

Thanks again guys,
Larry
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  #20  
Old January 3rd, 2005, 10:06 AM
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I'm going to throw this out because you haven't mentioned trying it and you said you don't have the owner's manual. Per the owner's manual, if the engine doesn't fire and start running after 2 attempts at starting, fully depress the gas pedal and hold it down while starting until it fires and starts, then release gas pedal. I have to do this every once in a great while.
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