Has anyone tried the Terrafirma Foam Air filters for a 300tdi? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 5th, 2012, 10:27 AM
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Has anyone tried the Terrafirma Foam Air filters for a 300tdi?

Has anyone tried the new Terrafirma Foam Air Filters (TF381) for the 300tdi engine?
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  #2  
Old April 27th, 2017, 10:19 AM
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I was searching threads started by you for more pics of your truck and saw this thread. I have not used the TF one but I have used the PiperCross on my 200TDI. I have suspicions they are the same filter (TF labelled manufactured by PiperCross). So far it works good.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 10:30 AM
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I would be cautious going down this path unless you never see dust. Or, as a minimum, be running oil analysis.

Motorcycle Oil Filters and Air Filters
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical...s-finally.html
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  #4  
Old April 27th, 2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
I would be cautious going down this path unless you never see dust. Or, as a minimum, be running oil analysis.

Motorcycle Oil Filters and Air Filters
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical...s-finally.html
I'd imagine using a correctly mounted snorkel would reduce risk?
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Old April 27th, 2017, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSanta85 View Post
I was searching threads started by you for more pics of your truck and saw this thread. I have not used the TF one but I have used the PiperCross on my 200TDI. I have suspicions they are the same filter (TF labelled manufactured by PiperCross). So far it works good.
TF says on their website that it is made by Pipercross.

Personally, I like OEM for filters. Too many instances where aftermarket filters are not up to par. A LR filter from LRdirect is $28.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 10:57 AM
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It can't hurt as you tend to get less dust intake. The problem is that the filters are letting fine particles through. These get into the oil and cause engine wear. It probably is not going to matter driving to the mall. But if you drive a lot of dirt roads, the impact will be significant. Like I say, it is easy enough to verify with oil analysis.

Read the links. isuzurover (Ben M.) has been a filtration engineer for at least 20 years.

For a road vehicle, I would not have a problem. For our application, it is bad choice, unless you like engine rebuilding. If you want more air flow, change to a large filter like the 300TDI, if you have a 200TDI.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:07 AM
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It is the same type of filter that ATV and dirt Bikes use. It is an oiled foam filter. The recommendation that came with it says clean and oil it every 1000 miles. I never had any contamination issues with any of my motocross bikes. Never lost an engine due to contamination. Never had any cylinder wall pitting.

I had to rotate my injection pump diaphragm to make up for the increase of air flow.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Vermonster View Post
A LR filter from LRdirect is $28.
If I had to guess the LR filter is made by Mahle or Mann. Last I heard Mann was doing the OE filters to MB and BMW.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamSanta85 View Post
It is the same type of filter that ATV and dirt Bikes use. It is an oiled foam filter. The recommendation that came with it says clean and oil it every 1000 miles. I never had any contamination issues with any of my motocross bikes. Never lost an engine due to contamination. Never had any cylinder wall pitting.

I had to rotate my injection pump diaphragm to make up for the increase of air flow.
Fair enough, but testing using science says otherwise.... You can do you own testing and prove the experts wrong.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 11:43 AM
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Fair enough, but testing using science says otherwise.... You can do you own testing and prove the experts wrong.
I am not going to do my own testing.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but if oiled foam filters were so bad for off road, why does nearly every device made specifically for off road use come with a oiled foam filter?

One guess of mine is because what happens when your paper filter gets wet off road?
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Old April 27th, 2017, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSanta85 View Post
One guess of mine is because what happens when your paper filter gets wet off road?
The wet "paper" (it is more accurate to describe them generally as fiber, because not all are made of paper) filter will dessicate because of the airflow, as you would expect. There's no problem with automotive fiber filters and water.

That said, the reason that oiled foam filters have oil is because the oil is what traps the dirt. If a foam filter were to be operated without oil, it would have far less small particle filtering capability.

Not all off-road vehicles use oil/foam filters. Take a look at a military humvee. It air filter is definitely not oil/foam. Take a look at a KOH vehicle or a sand rail/buggy, especially turbocharged ones.

The whole reason ATV's and other small off-road vehicles use oil/foam filters is because they are small displacement engines. Building a small particle polyurethane filter is almost impossible for large engines because the rigidity of the foam filtering media is extremely low and the total surface area is extremely limited. In theory you could build a foam/oil air filter that can filter as well as a paper filter for a large amount of airflow, but engineering that device would be daunting. It would be enormous. Think of the difference in surface area between a pleated fiber filter and a foam filter. They are just on totally different levels as far as airflow for a given particle filtration size.

Virtually all large engines that ingest enormous amounts of air (cars included) use pleated fiber (aka paper) filters. Engineers design and build these things. The foam/oil filter has way too many cons compared to paper filters. Not least of which is oiling. Why would you want to oil anything? More work, no advantages, more than likely disadvantages.
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  #12  
Old April 27th, 2017, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamSanta85 View Post
...why does nearly every device made specifically for off road use come with a oiled foam filter?
They all has extremely short service lives and rebuild intervals in comparison to the life you will want for your truck's engine.

Your engine, your choice. Like I say, a $15 oil analysis turns all the speculation into fact.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 12:50 PM
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I have never seen the TF foam filter in person, but looking at the photos it looks like it just has a foam sock over a normal filter.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 02:12 PM
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Just want to reiterate I am not trying to be argumentative. I think a lot can be gained from back and forth discussions and Q&A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
The wet "paper" (it is more accurate to describe them generally as fiber, because not all are made of paper) filter will dessicate because of the airflow, as you would expect. There's no problem with automotive fiber filters and water.
Ok makes sense. I've seen oil/water soaked what I believed to be paper filters turn to mush. (filter from hydrolocked engines)

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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
That said, the reason that oiled foam filters have oil is because the oil is what traps the dirt. If a foam filter were to be operated without oil, it would have far less small particle filtering capability.
For sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Not all off-road vehicles use oil/foam filters. Take a look at a military humvee. It air filter is definitely not oil/foam. Take a look at a KOH vehicle or a sand rail/buggy, especially turbocharged ones.
Military humvee's aren't going for max performance, and I would imagine the service interval of a foam filter wouldn't meet their spec. I texted a buddy who worked at a sand rail shop in Cali. He said foam filters are common. People use that and regular type. I should have been more clear. Performance off road vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Virtually all large engines that ingest enormous amounts of air (cars included) use pleated fiber (aka paper) filters. The foam/oil filter has way too many cons compared to paper filters. Not least of which is oiling. Why would you want to oil anything? More work, no advantages, more than likely disadvantages.
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Engineers design and build these things.
As a software engineer, what the engineer wants and what the user gets is often vastly different. Project managers and the likes love to make decisions. I can't imagine them releasing a production car and have them tell you, you need to clean your air filter every 1000 miles.

A couple well respected performance tuners use foam filters

Perrin: Foam Filter Q&A, why they are the best.

And of course HKS





"Depending on the grade and thickness of foam employed, an oil-wetted foam filter element can offer minimal airflow restriction or very high dirt capacity, the latter property making foam filters a popular choice in off-road rallying and other motorsport applications where high levels of dust will be encountered. Due to the way dust is captured on foam filters, large amounts may be trapped without measurable change in airflow restriction."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_filter#Foam
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Old April 27th, 2017, 02:30 PM
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They all has extremely short service lives and rebuild intervals in comparison to the life you will want for your truck's engine.
I mean I guess. After a day at the track a MX air filter is literally caked in dirt. If it was letting dirt through, the engine would barely last a couple days, let alone a few hundred hours. 450cc, 13.5:1 compression, 60ish whp, 10k+ rpm redline, 700cc oil capacity. That won't take dirt in the cylinder for long.

They go from this




To this in a few hours





I think it has to do with maintenance and the user. Are you willing to clean/oil your filter often?
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Old April 27th, 2017, 03:38 PM
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Adam,

I think you should be careful about letting your biases twist your understanding of physics.

Your comment about software engineering and management is non-sequitur. I have no idea how that applies to foam filters vs pleated paper filters.

Paper/fiber filters do NOT dissolve in water. I don't know where you are getting that information.

I hate to say it, but you're wrong about foam filters. And posting pictures of some japanese tuner car that travels 0.25 miles at a time is not justification.

Foam filters are sold by aftermarket companies with little understanding of physics. Sure look cool, though.

An M1A1 Abrams tank uses fiber filters as well. Their PJAC nano-filters flow way more air and for longer than some cheesy tuner car. With respect!!

Also, stop calling them "paper" filters. They are NOT made of paper anymore.

I know you like tuner cars, but do not be under the impression that tuners know everything about engines. They are some of the biggest slaves to fads, are generally influenced easily by sales material, and spend enormous amounts of time justifying their aftermarket purchases.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 03:59 PM
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Here's the Donaldson catalog listing all the vehicles that use fiber filters. Engineers spend a lot of time doing two things:

1. Increase the surface area of an air filter given a specific aperture
2. Decreasing the maximum particle size that can go through the same filter.

The combination of these two characteristics absolutely define filter development for the highest flowing engines in the harshest conditions.

http://www.emea.donaldson.com/en/air...ary/071714.pdf

I really don't want people in the future reading this thread and somehow thinking that oiled foam filters are the right filter to use for their Defender engines.
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  #18  
Old April 27th, 2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Your comment about software engineering and management is non-sequitur. I have no idea how that applies to foam filters vs pleated paper filters.
My point is that engineers don't get the last say. The original part isn't always the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Paper/fiber filters do NOT dissolve in water. I don't know where you are getting that information.
They don't dissolve but they certainly get to a state where it is useless as an air filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Foam filters are sold by aftermarket companies with little understanding of physics. Sure look cool, though.
That isn't true. They come OEM on off road machines. The Piper Warriors I used to fly had foam air filters...

You are stating numerous air filter manufacturers, whose business is making air filters, that are used in motorsport events world wide don't understand the physics of an air filter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
An M1A1 Abrams tank uses fiber filters as well. Their PJAC nano-filters flow way more air and for longer than some cheesy tuner car.
"The Donaldson PJAC is a self-cleaning air filter that cleans filter elements with short duration
pulses of compressed air."

It effing better for being so complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Also, stop calling them "paper" filters. They are NOT made of paper anymore.
Sorry, some manufacturers still call them paper filters. Mahle for instance.

"In order to protect the filters from moisture, the intake port is designed to keep water away from the filter element as much as possible. If moisture does reach the filter anyway, we have added another layer of protection. Our filter papers are impregnated with a special synthetic resin that increases the resistance of the filter insert to water and chemicals. Glue beads on the backs of the folds help the filter elements retain their shape."

"Air filters must function reliably even under extreme conditions. For high loads in dusty regions, a prefilter is used—a foam mat and metal or plastic mesh providing support on the downstream side. In particularly damp areas, prefilters with additional water-repellent non-woven overlays can help."

"...MAHLE filter papers are pleated in order to create more surface area for capturing dirt in a small space...."

http://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/eu/...s/air-filters/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I know you like tuner cars, but do not be under the impression that tuners know everything about engines. They are some of the biggest slaves to fads, are generally influenced easily by sales material, and spend enormous amounts of time justifying their aftermarket purchases.
It has nothing to do with fads. It has to do with results. Professional motocross, rally, and Formula 1 teams don't care about fads. They care about results.

I can rattle of 50 racing teams that use foam filters.


-----------------------------------------------


I am NOT advocating that everyone on this forum switch to foam air filters. They certainly have there advantages and disadvantages.
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Old April 27th, 2017, 04:29 PM
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"paper" filters are made from cellulose that is impregnated with resin before ever being transformed into the paper you see. It is about as close to a sheet of printer paper as a plastic bag. The cellulose only provides the structure to make the pores.

Water damages paper filters by clogging the pores. There can be permanent damage in low quality filters, but generally it is just water molecules stuck in the pores, like dirt would be.

Sadly this study was removed so I can only get the archive, which lacks the images. So one has to read for the conclusion. ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

The long of the short is that for 99.9% of people a OEM filter is going to be the absolute best. If you have a concern with driving an exceptionally dusty road, you will get more out of a prefilter. If you are worried about water getting to the filter, you are best served to bring a spare.
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  #20  
Old April 27th, 2017, 07:08 PM
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Reading this and without hijacking the intended purpose must ask because of all the knowledge above mentioned.
How can the cfm's of filters be determined?
Been looking for a +600 cfm filter from Donaldson's suppliers without much success (cylinder style).

Any canister part #'s be nice too
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