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  #21  
Old December 12th, 2011, 08:37 PM
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Final pictures, in the dark b/c the sun sets at 430 now!

All in all pretty good i think! The last pic makes it look like the wires go through the grill, but they just stick into the louvers a tiny bit so they can bend towards the terminals on the winch. They aren't even past the back side of the grill, plenty far from the raditator
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  #22  
Old December 13th, 2011, 09:42 AM
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Looks good.
I would suggest relocating your hooks to the bottom side of your winch plate. That would get them up out of the way a bit more.
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  #23  
Old December 13th, 2011, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by slorocco View Post
Looks good.
I would suggest relocating your hooks to the bottom side of your winch plate. That would get them up out of the way a bit more.

Yea its on the to do list. I had them there on the frame b/c prior to having the winch plate, there was no where else higher that was strong enough to put them on.
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  #24  
Old December 14th, 2011, 07:55 AM
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Actually loose the hooks and get some proper recovery points.
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  #25  
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:21 AM
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That looks like shit.
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  #26  
Old December 14th, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Sorry you feel that way... does the job without spending $1500 on a winch set up, having to upgrade my springs b/c an ARB bumper weighs half a ton
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  #27  
Old December 14th, 2011, 12:45 PM
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That's the thing, you do not have to spend that kind of money. You paid $60 for the ghetto-fab winch plate, and another $375 for the guy to weld everything up. For another $50-bucks, you could have had a Mantec bumper from Lucky8. Shipping would not be much more. It's not that the Mantec bumper is all that; certainly not my favorite. But it is a bumper designed to hold a winch. Not only will it hold a winch, but you can add proper recovery mounts to it. Those recovery hooks you have now are not safe, nor are they functional, the way you have them mounted. If you were to ever get stuck in mud, those hooks are unless because they're under everything. Ask Keith how that works out.

These are things you should think about. Really. That winch you bought is going to fail you. It's not an if. It's just a matter of when. Hell, for that matter, all winches will fail at some point, but that bargain basement winch you bought will fail a lot sooner. So you should be thinking about plan "B". You need some proper recovery points on the front and rear. They do not cost a lot.

How much did you pay for those hooks? Tractor Supply sells them for $10ea, so I doubt it was any cheaper than that. So for another $25 you could have had a property recovery point made to fit a standard 3/4" bow shackle. Twenty-Five bucks, that's less than dinner.

I just don't get it. These trucks are not cheap. But a lot of them look cheap. You have a $20k truck with a $4 winch zip-tied to it. I just do not understand this logic. Why not save your allowance and do the job correctly? For an additional weeks salary, you could have bought:
A Superwinch EPi9 for $550
The Mantec winch bumper for $488 plus shipping
Two shackle mounting brackets for $70

But now you're stuck. What's done is done. The bigger question now is, do you even have the stuff needed to utilize a winch? Do you have bow shackles? Snatch block(s)? Winch extension line, gloves, tree saver? Having the winch is only one part of the puzzle.
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  #28  
Old December 14th, 2011, 08:53 PM
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Hey Daniel. You clearly have indicated in your rant that you are knowledgable. You ever consider taking a constructive approach to sharing your knowledge vs brow beating someone you don't even know for thinking creatively through a problem. Or are you naturally this way?
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  #29  
Old December 14th, 2011, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman View Post
That's the thing, you do not have to spend that kind of money. You paid $60 for the ghetto-fab winch plate, and another $375 for the guy to weld everything up. For another $50-bucks, you could have had a Mantec bumper from Lucky8. Shipping would not be much more. It's not that the Mantec bumper is all that; certainly not my favorite. But it is a bumper designed to hold a winch. Not only will it hold a winch, but you can add proper recovery mounts to it. Those recovery hooks you have now are not safe, nor are they functional, the way you have them mounted. If you were to ever get stuck in mud, those hooks are unless because they're under everything. Ask Keith how that works out.
I had a chance to go wheeling very soon after getting the truck, and when I got it had NO recovery points (front or rear). I found these hooks as a quick solution to attach prior to going out so I could be a little prepared incase I needed a tug out of somewhere. I wasn't thrilled of the location but at the time it was the only suitable place to put them in the front. I agree, they are low. I wouldn't say they are 100% useless however. I will be looking to relocate them going forward

Quote:
These are things you should think about. Really. That winch you bought is going to fail you. It's not an if. It's just a matter of when. Hell, for that matter, all winches will fail at some point, but that bargain basement winch you bought will fail a lot sooner. So you should be thinking about plan "B". You need some proper recovery points on the front and rear. They do not cost a lot.

Super winch, Mile Marker, Vortex, Badlands.... got news for you... they are all practically the same damn thing. I read alot of reviews of this winch and yes it is no Warn, but the vast majority were very positive and for $300 I'll give it a try. Yes I have a Hi-lift, chain and straps etc as a plan B.

Quote:
How much did you pay for those hooks? Tractor Supply sells them for $10ea, so I doubt it was any cheaper than that. So for another $25 you could have had a property recovery point made to fit a standard 3/4" bow shackle. Twenty-Five bucks, that's less than dinner.
As I mentioned above, I know the hooks aren't the best, but they were available, and quick to put on for a little peace of mind while out for a full day of wheeling. And honestly, if I had needed them, I bet they would have worked just fine.


Quote:
I just don't get it. These trucks are not cheap. But a lot of them look cheap. You have a $20k truck with a $4 winch zip-tied to it. I just do not understand this logic. Why not save your allowance and do the job correctly? For an additional weeks salary, you could have bought:
A Superwinch EPi9 for $550
The Mantec winch bumper for $488 plus shipping
Two shackle mounting brackets for $70
Your right, they are not cheap, but I dont think they have to be expensive as they are. Because something fits a Land Rover Doesn't mean it has to cost twice as much as somethign that would work for a jeep. The bumper is plenty stout to hold the weight of my truck. Honestly, I took a long look at it today and I think it looks just fine, no worse than a mantec bumper would and honestly very similar. Maybe the pics weren't the best. I have more fun working through a problem for $800 then throwing $1000 at it to buy something off the shelf, thats half the fun to me.

And if my ruck is a $20k truck I will gladly sell it to anyone for 25% off and skip all the way home after doing so.

Quote:
But now you're stuck. What's done is done. The bigger question now is, do you even have the stuff needed to utilize a winch? Do you have bow shackles? Snatch block(s)? Winch extension line, gloves, tree saver? Having the winch is only one part of the puzzle.
1 thing at a time, I JUST put the winch on, and am building a bag of recovery gear to keep in the back.

Shackles - Yes
Snatch blocks - No
Extension - ? I have a 30ft tow strap and 85ft of cable...I think i'll be able to find an anchoring point within 125ft, and if I can't another 200ft probably wouldn't help either.
Gloves - Nope, dont own any work gloves. I also have a motorcycle and ride it in flip flops and a bathing suit.....YES i own a pair of work gloves!
Tree Saver - on order.


In all seriousness I appreciate your comments, b/c I take everything with a grain of salt, but there are more than 1 way to get something done. Not EVERYTHING has to be over done, but thats the american attitude. I tow my race car with a 5cyl chevy colorado. My trailer is 5000lbs loaded and my towing capacity is 5500lbs. sure it drops gears going up hills and revs its ass off when I go to pass someone, but for 3 years its done just fine without a single glitch, and when I'm not towing I get 25mpg

Yet every person I speak to thinks the trailer is WAY to big for that truck. Yet i can't help to giggle when I see people buying f350's to tow a 2500lb boat. Its just inefficient and ridiculous.

My point is sure it doesn't hurt to have something over-engineered, but on the other hand, its not necessary. There is always a balancing point, and for me, having a 12000lb winch for a 4,000lb truck is not necessary. See where I'm coming from?

I dont think anything on my truck is UNDER engineered, so by that account its safe.
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  #30  
Old December 15th, 2011, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
I had a chance to go wheeling very soon after getting the truck, and when I got it had NO recovery points (front or rear). I found these hooks as a quick solution to attach prior to going out so I could be a little prepared incase I needed a tug out of somewhere. I wasn't thrilled of the location but at the time it was the only suitable place to put them in the front. I agree, they are low. I wouldn't say they are 100% useless however. I will be looking to relocate them going forward

Super winch, Mile Marker, Vortex, Badlands.... got news for you... they are all practically the same damn thing. I read alot of reviews of this winch and yes it is no Warn, but the vast majority were very positive and for $300 I'll give it a try. Yes I have a Hi-lift, chain and straps etc as a plan B.

As I mentioned above, I know the hooks aren't the best, but they were available, and quick to put on for a little peace of mind while out for a full day of wheeling. And honestly, if I had needed them, I bet they would have worked just fine.

Your right, they are not cheap, but I dont think they have to be expensive as they are. Because something fits a Land Rover Doesn't mean it has to cost twice as much as somethign that would work for a jeep. The bumper is plenty stout to hold the weight of my truck. Honestly, I took a long look at it today and I think it looks just fine, no worse than a mantec bumper would and honestly very similar. Maybe the pics weren't the best. I have more fun working through a problem for $800 then throwing $1000 at it to buy something off the shelf, thats half the fun to me.

And if my ruck is a $20k truck I will gladly sell it to anyone for 25% off and skip all the way home after doing so.

1 thing at a time, I JUST put the winch on, and am building a bag of recovery gear to keep in the back.

Shackles - Yes
Snatch blocks - No
Extension - ? I have a 30ft tow strap and 85ft of cable...I think i'll be able to find an anchoring point within 125ft, and if I can't another 200ft probably wouldn't help either.
Gloves - Nope, dont own any work gloves. I also have a motorcycle and ride it in flip flops and a bathing suit.....YES i own a pair of work gloves!
Tree Saver - on order.

In all seriousness I appreciate your comments, b/c I take everything with a grain of salt, but there are more than 1 way to get something done. Not EVERYTHING has to be over done, but thats the american attitude. I tow my race car with a 5cyl chevy colorado. My trailer is 5000lbs loaded and my towing capacity is 5500lbs. sure it drops gears going up hills and revs its ass off when I go to pass someone, but for 3 years its done just fine without a single glitch, and when I'm not towing I get 25mpg

Yet every person I speak to thinks the trailer is WAY to big for that truck. Yet i can't help to giggle when I see people buying f350's to tow a 2500lb boat. Its just inefficient and ridiculous.

My point is sure it doesn't hurt to have something over-engineered, but on the other hand, its not necessary. There is always a balancing point, and for me, having a 12000lb winch for a 4,000lb truck is not necessary. See where I'm coming from?

I dont think anything on my truck is UNDER engineered, so by that account its safe.
Are you seriously trying to justify your purchase as the reasonable way to do things? Because if so, I don't get it. In one sentence you claim that your set-up is all you can afford; in another sentence you try to claim everything else is just simply over built. So which is it, are you a cheapfuck or are you just ignorant?

You start off by claiming you were in a pinch. You were going wheeling and you saw a need for recovery points so you ran out to Auto Zone and picked up those sweet hooks for a quick-and-dirty solution. Those hooks just bolt right on. Well, they bolt right on once you find a suitable mounting location. But the location in which you mounted these hooks in took some prep. It took you time to drill the holes in the frame and make everything look just right. So once you took all this time to mount your new hooks for a quick trip to the woods, you never thought to go back and do things right.

You see, you did not buy the hooks because you were in a jam. You bought the hooks because you're a cheapfuck. The hooks were only $20 or $25.00, and then a few bucks for bolts, nuts and washers. For less than $35.00 you had a recovery point and that was good enough for you. You never had any intentions of going back and doing the job right, if you did you would have finished the job you started before wasting all that money on your winch set-up. For you, those hooks were just fine.

Here is the problem with your thought process. Those hooks are unsafe in the manner in which you have them mounted. Think about it for a second. The hooks are upside down, so anytime a strap were to be fitted to those hooks the way they are, it has the potential to fall off. Gravity is a bitch sometimes. Now I know those sweet hooks have a little metal tab on them to help secure the strap to the hook and prevent if from falling off....but come on, lets not pretend here. Those metal tabs are a pile of shit; they get bent easy enough and only become a nuisance. Shit, even when they're not bent they do not do a very good job of holding a strap on the hook. So it's not really all that safe to assume the recovery strap is just going to stay put, and that puts everyone involved with the recovery at risk. The worst part about it is the truck doing the recovery has the greatest part of that risk, not you.

Another problem you have with your hook install is the lack of backing plates. I know I can't see from the pics you posted whether or not backing plates are there, but we both no they're not. You're too cheap to buy backing plates. Besides, you were in a pinch to get this project done so you could hit the trails and did not have time for backing plates. In fact, you were in such a hurry you did not have the time to go out and buy longer bolts so you could anchor the hooks through the frame. It appears the nuts for your hooks are sitting inside the frame, leaving only 3/16" of material to hold the hooks to your truck.

Do you know what happens to others when a recovery hook rips off a frame and goes flying?

So I think there is a pretty good chance you're just a cheapfuck. I don't think what you did was logical at all, no matter how you attempt to justify it. The logical thought process would be to say to yourself, "shit, this is not going to work". The logical person would have just spent an extra $30 to do the job right and bought JATE rings.

I like your comments about all winches being the same. That's funny right there. I'll agree that most of these manufactures have their lower class of winches. WARN has their VR series, Ramsey has their Patriot series, etc... But you're making a pretty bold statement that all winch manufactures are the same. I can't remember the last time I saw a 30 year old Mile Marker, but we see 30 year old WARN 8274's all the time. You think a Huskey10 is only going to last as long as a Superwinch EP? There is a reason some of these winches cost $2,000 - it's because they're quality shit. Is one winch better than the other? You fucking right! Now I'm not telling you to go out and buy a $2,000 winch. But what I am saying is, that for not much more money you could have had a much better winch. That winch you have there is not built well at all and they do not last. They're slow as slow can get (6 feet per minute??? LOL), and the cheap made in china parts inside them rust out in no time. As soon as a little surface rust accumulates on the motor, the brushes will not make a good contact and there you sit. Trust me, it's going to happen with this winch.

Now I'm not going to say that a quality winch will not quit on you. I know it will. It happens to the guys over at OEX pretty regular. The difference is, those guys use their winches several times a day, for days at a time. But look at what type winch they use on all their vehicles. I'm sure they get a price break doe to the volume they buy for their fleet. But at the same time you'll never see them go to a lesser quality winch such as one from Harbor Freight.

So again, when it comes to winches you're a cheapfuck. Your purchase was not logical no matter how you try to justify it.

I really like your comments about taking a long look at your truck and being pleased with what you saw. I don't know what the fuck you were looking at, but it can't be the same truck you posted pictures of. I mean seriously, come on, look at that thing. It looks like shit. You may as well of made yourself a PVC snorkel and put a NO FEAR sticker across the windshield. That winch set-up sticks out like a sore thumb. Not only does it stick out like a sore thumb, but your welder friends did a half-ass job with the grinder, too. Look at this shit. It looks like he got a new grinder and some grinding wheels for Christmas, got excited, and went nuts on your front bumper. It's a hack job, man. You would have been a lot better off with a new Mantec bumper or a used Rockware bumper for the same price.

And I don't know what your tangent was all about when you were talking about 5,000lb trailers and Chevy's. But you really showed your ignorance when talking about your set-up as thought out and safe. It's not either. A thought out set-up would be much neater. Here is a thought out set-up on a Defender. See the Jate rings? The recovery points? The bumper? But it does not stop there. Have a look at John's battery compartment where the winch is hooked up. Or take a look at Jack's battery compartment. These are thought out installs. These installs are not to be confused your your hack job install. These guys did the job, the entire job, correctly.

All this was bound to happen sooner or later. It happened with the Discovery's 8 or 10 years ago. The price of these vehicles drop to a point where any redneck can afford them. Then we start seeing shit like this thread popping up all over the place. People no longer take pride in what they have. People start doing just the minimum to get by, and the next thing we know the brand no longer has a uniqueness to it. May as well just all drive Jeeps and Toyota's.
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  #31  
Old December 15th, 2011, 08:00 AM
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OK E-thug.

Your a hero, thanks for your input, go back to jacking off to jate rings and tow jaws
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  #32  
Old December 15th, 2011, 08:59 AM
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Dan is right on most of this. I don't agree with his approach, but I think if you ignore the barbs there is some good advice in there. Particularly if those hooks are only bolted through one wall of the chassis dumbiron, that is a very dangerous setup. If I was the one recovering you I would probably refuse to use it. I would also advise getting a good name brand snatch block. Don't skimp on it as they load on them can be enormous, many times the load on the cable. They are great to have as they let you get a straighter pull to help feed the cable back on the drum neatly and also to reduce the load on the motor, cable, and fixings. With the bargain-basement winch you are going to have less tolerance to overheating, lower quality seals and bearings, and the solenoids will likely have smaller contacts that will burn out faster than a higher quality unit. If you do end up needing to use that winch in anger, make sure your cables are plenty oversized and that the ground runs all the way back to the battery. Ignore the duty cycle at your peril, it could be a long night out in the Pine Barrens. Who knows, you might even see the Jersey Devil.
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  #33  
Old December 15th, 2011, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
Dan is right on most of this. I don't agree with his approach, but I think if you ignore the barbs there is some good advice in there. Particularly if those hooks are only bolted through one wall of the chassis dumbiron, that is a very dangerous setup. If I was the one recovering you I would probably refuse to use it. I would also advise getting a good name brand snatch block. Don't skimp on it as they load on them can be enormous, many times the load on the cable. They are great to have as they let you get a straighter pull to help feed the cable back on the drum neatly and also to reduce the load on the motor, cable, and fixings. With the bargain-basement winch you are going to have less tolerance to overheating, lower quality seals and bearings, and the solenoids will likely have smaller contacts that will burn out faster than a higher quality unit. If you do end up needing to use that winch in anger, make sure your cables are plenty oversized and that the ground runs all the way back to the battery. Ignore the duty cycle at your peril, it could be a long night out in the Pine Barrens. Who knows, you might even see the Jersey Devil.

Snatch block is on the list of things to throw in the bag.

If I was to use the hooks I would use both of them together, not one by itself to spread the load. - regardless, as mentioned, they are not a permanent stay. When I find a good deal on a set of jate rings I'll be getting them.
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  #34  
Old December 15th, 2011, 10:03 AM
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The proof of the pudding, as they say, will be in the eating. We will see if he eats it or it eats him. No point in getting hot about it, if it's a fail, it's on Adrian.
I have to admit to a certain amount of bodge Rover engineering myself. Not much of it very easy on the eyes either.
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Old December 15th, 2011, 11:21 AM
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We will see if he eats it or it eats him
or the person doing the recovery, or an innocent bystander
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  #36  
Old December 15th, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
Snatch block is on the list of things to throw in the bag.

If I was to use the hooks I would use both of them together, not one by itself to spread the load. - regardless, as mentioned, they are not a permanent stay. When I find a good deal on a set of jate rings I'll be getting them.
Adrian - don't mind dchapman. He has that "use a 2x4 to swat a fly" way of posting. But... a lot of what he says has truth - you just have to ignore the "cheapfuck" comments. (Hell, I'm surprised he hasn't torn me a new e-asshole on my Toy conversion)

Looking at the pics, the bumper and winch look fine. I think the $60 for the plate and then $350 on welding/fab costs sent it into the "could have done Mantec" zone that chapman brought up. If you are looking to save coin, one tip is to prep everything yourself and then bring it to the welder to lay bead. The shitty work is grinding stuff down and cutting metal which they will charge for. I've brought prepped stuff to to a guy that TIG's and it was at most $100, but all he had to do was fire the torch up and weld.

You're taking your truck off road which is way more than practically ever Defender in our area does including the ones with $4000 front bumper setups. You'll find what works for you and what doesn't the more you go out and the more people that you ride trail with. My truck had an ARB with a Warn 9500 when I got it but I liked how the Rockware looked and worked from seeing it on other trucks and now I'm running that and updated the Warn with synthetic line. And there may be a lot of trips that you won't even use the winch - heck I had a year or so where I didn't have to use mine but I think the point chapman is making, is when you need it you REALLY need it and you might be SOL if it fails.

The Jate rings are nice in that you can just bolt them on. On a trip a while ago we yanked a mostly stock Disco around and all he had was one Jate ring. Another option is http://www.expeditionexchange.com/smb/ I bought one for my ARB bumper and it worked well. Just make sure there is a backing plate and grade 8 bolts. The SMB might be just the way to go for you setup.

One more thing, I find there are no shops in our area that have anything decent to "touch & feel" in person and the knowledge base is even worse. EE is a great site for seeing and reading. And ordering from places like EE, RN, L8 and AB is the way to go. Those guys all ride trail so they will at least have a reason why they are selling what they are selling. I know we've been trying to catch up in person and I can show you what I use and why when we finally do.
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  #37  
Old December 15th, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Who knew Virginia rednecks were so superior to New Jersey ones!

Adrian, PM me your address and I'll send you a pair of Jate Rings. Merry Christmas.

The only thing I'll add is I recommend not wheeling alone ever. It's far safer to have two, but preferably three in a group.

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Originally Posted by dchapman View Post
Have a look at John's battery compartment where the winch is hooked up. Or take a look at Jack's battery compartment. These are thought out installs. These installs are not to be confused your your hack job install. These guys did the job, the entire job, correctly.
Not the entire job. One of those pretty looking battery compartments doesn't have grommets in the holes where the wire goes through the battery box. FAIL.
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  #38  
Old December 15th, 2011, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by don View Post
Adrian - don't mind dchapman. He has that "use a 2x4 to swat a fly" way of posting. But... a lot of what he says has truth - you just have to ignore the "cheapfuck" comments. (Hell, I'm surprised he hasn't torn me a new e-asshole on my Toy conversion)

Looking at the pics, the bumper and winch look fine. I think the $60 for the plate and then $350 on welding/fab costs sent it into the "could have done Mantec" zone that chapman brought up. If you are looking to save coin, one tip is to prep everything yourself and then bring it to the welder to lay bead. The shitty work is grinding stuff down and cutting metal which they will charge for. I've brought prepped stuff to to a guy that TIG's and it was at most $100, but all he had to do was fire the torch up and weld.

You're taking your truck off road which is way more than practically ever Defender in our area does including the ones with $4000 front bumper setups. You'll find what works for you and what doesn't the more you go out and the more people that you ride trail with. My truck had an ARB with a Warn 9500 when I got it but I liked how the Rockware looked and worked from seeing it on other trucks and now I'm running that and updated the Warn with synthetic line. And there may be a lot of trips that you won't even use the winch - heck I had a year or so where I didn't have to use mine but I think the point chapman is making, is when you need it you REALLY need it and you might be SOL if it fails.

The Jate rings are nice in that you can just bolt them on. On a trip a while ago we yanked a mostly stock Disco around and all he had was one Jate ring. Another option is http://www.expeditionexchange.com/smb/ I bought one for my ARB bumper and it worked well. Just make sure there is a backing plate and grade 8 bolts. The SMB might be just the way to go for you setup.

One more thing, I find there are no shops in our area that have anything decent to "touch & feel" in person and the knowledge base is even worse. EE is a great site for seeing and reading. And ordering from places like EE, RN, L8 and AB is the way to go. Those guys all ride trail so they will at least have a reason why they are selling what they are selling. I know we've been trying to catch up in person and I can show you what I use and why when we finally do.

I was expecting to pay a little less than what I did, but I wasn't going to argue with the guy, he's been good to me in the past so it is what it is. Anyways looking forward to meeting up still, if you have any free time between christmas and New Years let me know, technically I'm working but its usually a VERY slow week and should be around if you are.
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  #39  
Old December 16th, 2011, 09:51 AM
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Another concern, or it should be, with hooks, aside from the strap falling off or them tearing out of the thin chassis material, is the fact that they are only rated to 10,000lb and recovery forces can easily exceed that.
On top of that, those forces are applied in a leverage fashion which is a very bad way to be applying the load because it reduces the actual load capacity.
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  #40  
Old December 16th, 2011, 10:29 AM
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Carl Jonsson
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That's what the PO had done to my truck. He had placed two hooks (no backing plates) about a foot or so above the frame rail which means that if loaded the forces would attempt to twist the bumper. The recovery points should be mounted as close to inline with the frame rail of the chassis as possible (where bumper mounts to chassis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antichrist
Another concern, or it should be, with hooks, aside from the strap falling off or them tearing out of the thin chassis material, is the fact that they are only rated to 10,000lb and recovery forces can easily exceed that.
On top of that, those forces are applied in a leverage fashion which is a very bad way to be applying the load because it reduces the actual load capacity.
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