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  #1  
Old December 7th, 2005, 07:55 PM
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Tim Riccardi
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GEMS or Bosch

Has anybody tries to replace a 3.9 with a 4.6 (And use the GEMS or Bosch Fuel Injection)? Can this be done without using the wheel sensors? Tim
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  #2  
Old December 7th, 2005, 08:06 PM
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Jason Herring
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If you want to use the 3.9's sensors and ECU it should be fairly easy. If you want to convert to GEMS... ugh, lots of rewiring work, new ECU, new inteface to the dashboard... sounds like a big mess to me.
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  #3  
Old December 7th, 2005, 08:17 PM
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Robert Dassler
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Replacing the 3.9 with the 4.6 is no problem. What perceived benefit will you get by spending the time and money to switch to GEMS or Bosch fuel management?
Rob
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  #4  
Old December 7th, 2005, 08:32 PM
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Tim Riccardi
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I can get a 4.6,trans,xfer w/ECU and all wiring for cheap. When crossing water the "wet" distributor has been a problem and I know the truck runs rich. I have a wide-band O2 and it reads 12 to 1 all the time. I've tried different plugs, wires ect. and I've tried a SAFC(goes between the mass air and the computer). The mass air on the 3.9's DON'T correct that much. Any thoughts? Tim
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  #5  
Old December 7th, 2005, 09:45 PM
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Hmm, I thought I remember there is a screw of some type on the MAF to adjust it if you are rich or lean? I like the idea of the coil packs too, but the reality of it is you are adding 3 times as much junk that cannot get wet in order to run those coil packs. That and the 14CUX is much easier to trouble shoot when out in the field!
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Old December 7th, 2005, 09:58 PM
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Well, if the mixture is constantly reading 12:1, that may actually be correct. IIRC, the Hot-Wire system runs very rich when configured for use with catalytic convertors. There are 4 or 5 different tune settings stored inside the computer, and which one is determined by a resistor. I've seen it mentioned a few times in UK forums that having the 'Cat' resistor, but no catalytic convertors, will result in extremely high emissions.

Some places make reference to a 'Green' resistor and a 'white' resistor, which are the two options use in UK vehicles.

Somewhere I've seen the actual resistance measurements for the different options as well as where they are used. I've been wondering for a long time the actual difference in the fuel mapping between them, but nobody has ever properly tested them out. I'll try to find the numbers out there

-Hans
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  #7  
Old December 7th, 2005, 09:59 PM
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Robert Dassler
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If you want to go that deep, get a diesel and a good snorkle. The Bosch system will be way too much trouble as its ECU communicates with the ABS, transmission, Instrument pack, and others. It is not really a viable swap unless you have extremely deep pockets. The Gems system would be easier but you still have the road speed sensors to contend with as well as the alarm control unit. If you really want Gems...trade your truck for a 1997. Gems is not really better than 14CUX...it just has different problems and is less field fixable.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 10:08 PM
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Found it!

The aussie (no cats) is 180 ohm.
The UK (no cats) is 470 ohm
The Saudi (no cats ) is 910 ohm.
The Cats one is 1.2k ohms.

There is additional cat tune in there, but I can't confirm the resistance for it. RPi says there is a 3900ohm cat resistor as well, which is possibly the missing one. No resistor will enter a 'limp home' mode, which apparently runs like crap and is RPM limited.

1/2 watt or larger resistors can be used, but it's recommended to use the good 2% ones.
It is located between pins 5 and 27 on the ECU, wire colors are white/black and white/grey. The resistor itself will be in a small blue plastic housing.

Not sure what else the different tune settings alter besides the fuel map. I'd be interested to see how much of a difference it is, and if it's worth it to change resistors?

-Hans
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  #9  
Old December 7th, 2005, 10:11 PM
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Tim Riccardi
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Thanks for the replies. I found out the truck is a 1998 4.6HSE. I think that is a GEMS. I don't know what xfer case it has. I would like to keep it together, if possible. I can get everything I need (computer ect), for cheap. It has an auto trans, but I don't know if I would use or sell. Is there a demand for a used auto from a RR? Tim
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  #10  
Old December 7th, 2005, 10:13 PM
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Oh, and regarding the distributor issue. Have you considered trying either the Mallory Unilite or possibly an MSD system instead? Both can be easily be made to fit the Rover 3.9 engine. Either that, or maybe a waterproof boot over the whole thing?

-Hans
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  #11  
Old December 7th, 2005, 10:21 PM
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Robert Dassler
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The trans and t-box would be no good to you. The t-box is a Borg warner box with the outputs on the left side...the D90 is opposite. The Auto trans is computer controlled. You'd have to either incorporate the computer or swap it for an older, non electronic one...probably swap it for a non electronic one as I think the same ecu also controlls the t-box that you can't use. If you're really gonna do this, maybe get an ECU out of a 5speed Gems Disco and keep the R380.
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  #12  
Old December 7th, 2005, 10:45 PM
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Tim Riccardi
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Hans thanks. When my truck is running again I will try different resistors. I will post findings. Just for some info on AFR. In my Mustang ( I know its not Land Rover, but AFR is AFR), when its @ 12 to 1 the gas mileage and the performance is terrrible, @14.7 to 1 night and day better. The Ford EEC does a great job in keeping the AFR around 14.7 to 1. You can change alot before you run into problems(like a 15lb procharger and double the fuel pressure), in fact I would live to try a ford EEC in my D-90, if I just used a Tweecer to control the EEC I know it would work great. How much time it would take, I don't know. When I get it running I'll re-record AFR(wideband), RPM'S, and mass air voltage. It only records 2 minutes at a time and has since been cleared. Thanks Tim

Follow-up Post:

Hans I have a Mallory unilite installed(sort of). My vacuum advance when bad and I had a SBC unilte laying around. I just replaced the LR parts with the Mallory parts. Made no differnce at all in the water problem. But the vacuum advance is MUCH better. First it fits on the factory distributor and the part is $25-$30, much cheaper than a new distributor. It also adds about 10 witch helps parts throttle response. Tim
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  #13  
Old December 7th, 2005, 11:15 PM
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Wait, did you replace the entire guts of the distributor with the optical module from the unilite? or just the vacuum advance? (interested to hear of this possible option!).

I know that you can also replace the LR ignition module with a 4-pin HEI from GM since they use the same type of sensor. I've also seen waterproof boots that cover the whole distributor head, that may help the issue as well. The real question before I start really suggesting a fix though is what problems were you having with water and the distributor? Was water getting into the sensors? or splashing on the module?

Mike Hippert and I were also toying around with the Megasquirt EFI system. I have it up and running in my CJ-7 at the moment, but Mike had issues adapting it and a ford ignition ECU to his 4.6. It would be a no-brainer to install it in a 3.9, you could even use all the pre-existing sensors other than the factory 02 sensors. Since you said you already have a wide-band O2 you're a few steps ahead of the game as well, since it can support the widebands for the fuel control.

Later versions of the Megasquirt can use a few different types of ignition systems to give full spark control as well, if you want to go to that length. I eventually plan on swapping the D-90 over to Megasquirt as well, and also using the later THOR intake manifold if possible. Supposedly it gives better torque and extends the power curve a lot lower in the RPM band. But I have a few other things to take care of first.
-Hans
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  #14  
Old December 8th, 2005, 12:35 AM
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Tim Riccardi
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Hans I replaced evrything except the shaft(chevy was to long) and the cap (locks different). Mike is using what Ford EEC in his 4.6? Mass air or speed density? Is he using Land Rover distributor? Tim
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Old December 8th, 2005, 01:07 AM
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Honestly, I don't know which version he was using. Sorry I can't help more on that. He had a long and rapidly changing project when he was re-doing his engine.

-Hans
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Old December 8th, 2005, 08:17 AM
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I was trying to use the megasquirt with a Ford EDIS module, but you need an auto flywheel to make it work. The manual flywheel does not have the pickups on it for the crank sensor that triggers the ignition of the EDIS.

This would have been great because I would kill 2 birds with one stone, I would be running the megasquirt as an ECU (it's simple and you can hook it to your laptop and get real time readings of every sensor! then adjust your fuel injector rates and all kinds of other good stuff!) and 2 the EDIS mudal controls the spark coming out of the coil packs. YOu also control the EDIS fro the megasquirt! That means you basicly have control over everything on the engine!

I really wish this would have worked out but I just didn't want to pull the engine again so that I could somehow mount pickups for the crank sensor to the flywheel. The sensors are mounted on the engine side of the flywheel, they are on a band that is rivited to the flywheel and I really didn't want to spend allot of $$ and time getting it mounted (I still didn't have all the bugs worked out) so I opted out of it and went back to the 14CUX.

The EDIS is a popular coil pack controler in the antique car world because it is so simple to use. Check it out.

http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html

In theroy you could use it with the 14CUX, but i am not you would need something to advance and retard timming unless the crank pickups were offset when they were mounted so the timming was set properly.

Anyway, food for thought.
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  #17  
Old December 8th, 2005, 10:59 AM
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Mike,
If you ever try to go this route again...look at a flywheel from a 1996 Disco with an R380...has the sensor ring already there.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 12:08 PM
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Ahhh good to know. I'll have to keep my eye out for one!
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  #19  
Old December 8th, 2005, 12:43 PM
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Yeah, this is interesting. I'm thinking about running a disco v8 with manual trans to update the 110 project until I get around to dieseling the thing. I'm hoping to find something cheap. Some of it will depend on how well the old carb v8 runs but I've been dying to experiment with the megasquirt!
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  #20  
Old December 8th, 2005, 01:26 PM
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Jim,
I've got a customer who is going to be doing a diesel conversion very soon and will have all the EFI bits left over from the 14CUX system. There is also a replacement manifold available from Edelbrock to fit a Holly carb. I converted a couple of grey market Range Rovers this way. Honestly, though, I think the original side draft carbs run fine when set up properly. There is a guy back east...Joe Curto...that specializes in rebuilding those carbs. The web site is www.joecurto.com . I bought a book and the mixture setting tool from him to work on a customers 110.
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