Engine Swap: which one? 200tdi, 300tdi, or something I dont even know about - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old March 26th, 2013, 06:15 AM
The Dro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
ever even had one ?
That has nothing to do with it.

I don't need to own one to know that they are overpriced, loud as hell and even though they are a fairly simple motor, very few know how to work on them.

I guess it's a matter of preference.
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  #22  
Old March 26th, 2013, 06:24 AM
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4.6, if you must use a diesel those Td5's are impressive. Rover V8's are fickle but they put a smile on my face.


Whoever says they are gettting 30MPG must be calculating imperial gallons.
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  #23  
Old March 26th, 2013, 07:24 AM
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TDI is mostly mechanical and other stuff...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobTheGob View Post
Don't the TDI200/300 have electronic ECU's?!?
The 200TDI, all mechanical NO ECU.
The 300TDI, generally not electronic, but some later Discos have a semi-electronic controlled IP that is usually swapped out for a mechanical one.

You must have the TD5 in mind which is strictly drive by wire.

The Puma 2.4 Ford engine in Land Rovers has an ECU as well, but was used in armored cars with a mechanical IP without common rail. I don't know if the same head was used for the mechanical setup, just machined for manual injectors, but it would be interesting to find a manual 2.4 Puma IP and get rid of the ECU if you were in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrc.swb View Post
I don't need to own one to know that they are overpriced, loud as hell and even though they are a fairly simple motor, very few know how to work on them. I guess it's a matter of preference.
If "done" right diesel engines are built to higher standards and thus overall a better value for money.
The 200 & 300TDI engines have their head gasket and timing belt issues, but the Mercedes OM617, now that's an engine.
In 1977 the OM617 set an endurance speed record for 156 MPH over several days of consistent driving.
Will run on most any fuel and last longer than most engines (some claim to have driven over a million miles without a rebuild) and

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrc.swb View Post
Only if it's a VO diesel.

And it has to smell like Mickey D's french fries.
Yes Pedro they will run on veg oil and smell like french fries.
You will convert one day, amigo, just a matter of time!
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  #24  
Old March 26th, 2013, 08:05 AM
The Dro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Yes Pedro they will run on veg oil and smell like french fries.
You will convert one day, amigo, just a matter of time!
I might one day.

With one of these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
If "done" right diesel engines are built to higher standards and thus overall a better value for money.
The 200 & 300TDI engines have their head gasket and timing belt issues, but the Mercedes OM617, now that's an engine.
In 1977 the OM617 set an endurance speed record for 156 MPH over several days of consistent driving.
Will run on most any fuel and last longer than most engines (some claim to have driven over a million miles without a rebuild) and
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  #25  
Old March 26th, 2013, 10:30 AM
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Any idea what costs can be plugged into each motor option?

Just tossing guesses out there:

200tdi - $2-3k?
300tdi - $3-4k?
OM617 - $1k + adapter for tranny, & motor mounts
4.6 v8 - $1-2k?

Also any idea on HP/Torque breakout?

And the weights?

rdavisinva - the OM617's only need a couple of wires to run, correct? They look like a great option (especially if like that other thread - rigs coming in from the UK need to be stock and won't come over with the 200tdi for some more years) for import Defenders. Problem is, if and when I do get around to doing a OM617 they will be all used up
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  #26  
Old March 26th, 2013, 11:19 AM
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I like the 300tdi option if you want to keep it fully LR. The OM617 is an interesting option too.


(from Wikipedia 3/26/13)
300Tdi (Engine Codes 16L and 23L)


A 300Tdi, seen here in a Discovery Series I. Unlike the previous Tdi engine a single version of a 300Tdi was used for all Land Rover models.


Although the 200Tdi engine had been an undoubted technological and sales success, it had certain limitations and flaws that needed to be rectified. Despite the numerous differences, it was still in essence a direct-injection version of the older Diesel Turbo engine.[63] It was also considered rather raucous and unrefined, especially for use in the Discovery and Range Rover models.[67] A special version of the engine had to be produced to fit the Defender, and problems with weak head gasket had been identified.[68] The British Army (and some other military buyers) had not opted for the 200Tdi because it could not be fitted with a 24-volt generator for powering radio equipment- instead the Army continued to buy vehicles with 2.5-litre naturally aspirated diesels.[60] Upcoming European diesel emissions regulations (Euro I) meant that Land Rover would be forced to radically alter the engine anyway. The resulting development project (coded Romulus) produced the 300Tdi engine. Although externally very similar to the Discovery/Range Rover version of its predecessor, 208 changes were made. These included modifications to the block, cylinder head, fuel injector system and ancillary systems. The crankshaft, pistons and connecting rods were significantly altered over the 200Tdi.[69] The most obvious external changes were the fitting of a rubber acoustic cover over the engine to reduce noise and the change to a single serpentine belt to drive the ancillaries instead of the multiple V-belts of the older engines. Emissions regulation included the fitting of an exhaust gas recirculation system. Power and torque outputs remained the same, and the engine had been specifically designed to be compatible with all the models in the Land Rover range without any changes. This meant that the Defender engines were fitted in the same tune as the Discovery/Range Rover engines.[60] The 300Tdi was noticeably smoother and quieter than the 200Tdi, but was generally found to not be quite as economical in real-world use.[70] It turned out that the Euro I emissions regulations were not as severe as Land Rover anticipated, and so the 300Tdi was able to remain in production until the introduction of the Euro III rules. When fitted to vehicles with an automatic transmission, power was increased to 122 horsepower to make up for the power losses in the transmission. These engines (designated 23L) had Bosch Electronic Diesel Control systems, where the mechanical injector system was controlled by a fly-by-wire electronic throttle to reduce emissions.[71] The 300Tdi was replaced in 1998 by the 5-cylinder Td5, bringing to an end the line of Land Rover 4-cylinder engines that can be traced back to 1957. The Td5 engine was loosely based on the Rover Group's L-series diesel engine. The 300Tdi remained in production in Brazil, and was offered as an option on rest of world (non-UK/Europe) models. Following Ford's acquisition of Land Rover in 2000, the engine was used in Brazilian-built Ford pick-up trucks as well.[12] Increasing emissions laws worldwide and falling sales led to production of the 300Tdi ending in 2006. A much-modified 2.8-litre version was built by International Engines in Brazil until 2010, and was available as an after-market fitment to Land Rovers through specialist converters.[66][72] International then became MWM International Motores and a further update of the 300Tdi design was launched as the 3.0 Power Stroke. Although based around the same block and basic architecture as the 300Tdi the Power Stroke has major differences such as electronic common rail injection and new crossflow cylinder head with Overhead camshaft.
Layout: 4-cylinder, in-line
Block/head: Cast iron/aluminium alloy
Valves: OHV, belt-driven camshaft, push-rod operated
Capacity: 2,495 cc (152.3 cu in)
Bore stroke: 90.47 mm 97 mm (3.562 in 3.8 in)
Compression ratio: 19:1
Fuel injection: Bosch VE rotary pump and Bosch two-stage injectors (with Bosch EDC system on versions with automatic transmission)
Induction: Allied Signal T25 turbocharger
Power: 111 hp (83 kW) @ 4,250 rpm (versions with manual transmission)
122 hp (91 kW) @ 4,250 rpm (versions with automatic transmission)
Torque: 195 lbfft (264 Nm) @ 1,800 rpm (versions with manual transmission)
210 lbfft (280 Nm) @ 1,800 rpm (versions with automatic transmission)
Production: 1994–2006
Used in: Land Rover Defender, Discovery, and Range Rover; also various Brazil-assembled Ford pickup trucks.
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  #27  
Old March 26th, 2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzanc View Post
Looking into swapping the old 2.5td/LT77/LT230 in my '87 ROW 90 for a 300tdi/Ashcroft R380/Ashcroft 1.2 T-case. Is this a good set up or will my money be better spent elsewhere?

Thoughts, comments, suggestions are very welcome at this point
I've got (nearly) that same setup in my 110 three door: 300 Tdi, Ashcroft stubby R380, old 1.6 Tcase converted to 1.2. I drive it to work 3-4 days a week, 40 miles each direction. I get about 25 MPG in the summer, 22-23 MPG with winter blend diesel; rural and some in-town driving. Stock tires, does 65+ MPH without significant vibration.

As a daily driver it does fine. I only get drips from the transfer case occasionally (seeping seals, which you shouldn't have with a new Ashcroft) and from the vacuum pump. I replaced the seals once on the vacuum pump two years ago - I plan on converting to an electric vacuum pump next time.

The only thing that really sucks is the new diesel prices.
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  #28  
Old March 26th, 2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
Any idea what costs can be plugged into each motor option?

Just tossing guesses out there:

200tdi - $2-3k?
300tdi - $3-4k?
OM617 - $1k + adapter for tranny, & motor mounts
4.6 v8 - $1-2k?
I think you need to factor in parts beyond the engines. That is where the costs add up. Those costs depend a LOT on which motor and gearbox is in there now and how much "maintenance" work you plan on doing on the old parts.

There is also a wide range of costs in the engines themselves depending on condition.
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  #29  
Old March 26th, 2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
Any idea what costs can be plugged into each motor option?

Just tossing guesses out there:

200tdi - $2-3k?
300tdi - $3-4k?
OM617 - $1k + adapter for tranny, & motor mounts
4.6 v8 - $1-2k?
I think given the application; i.e. going into a diesel truck, the 4.6 option is VERY low. I'd ballpark much closer to $5k-and much more than that if you go with Pedro's recommendation of high end components such as beefed up ZF's. Just finding a decent 4.6 these days is difficult at times, then you add in block work if you want HP gains, etc. It's not a simple proposition-complicated by transition to gas. Not impossible of course, just not close to plug and play nor cheap.

That being said, your HP numbers will be significantly higher than the diesel range; but that is dependent on if you have a stock 4.6 or start down the path of cam, port/polish, frankenstein it with 4.0 pistons, etc.

Going back to the OP; if I were looking at heart transplant I'd stick with the original fuel type. Personally I'd go 200TDi or call Robert D and venture down the alluring MB route.
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  #30  
Old March 26th, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post

I think you need to factor in parts beyond the engines. That is where the costs add up. Those costs depend a LOT on which motor and gearbox is in there now and how much "maintenance" work you plan on doing on the old parts.

There is also a wide range of costs in the engines themselves depending on condition.
Agree - I was just trying to throw a ball park figure out there and hence the question mark. An asterisk can be added as well for your point about additional costs based on current configuration..

Also was figuring "decent - good" condition motors based on mental memory of what I have seen stuff go for sale here on the board.

Not that I am doing a power plant swap any time soon but was curious to the roundabout costs vs performance numbers between what i think are 4 popular motor swaps for the Defender.
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  #31  
Old March 26th, 2013, 12:49 PM
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From Glencoyne Engineering's site. They favor the 200 over the 300 as do I.
In their experience the 300 head is more prone to cracking than 200's. That said I have never had an issue.




Here you will find a comprehensive guide to the ever-popular 200 and 300 TDi engines, used by Land Rover in the Discovery, Defender and Range Rover Classic from 1989 onwards. This guide covers history, specifications, known weaknesses, maintenance and rebuilding. Hopefully people will find it useful.
The TDi family - a short history
The 200 TDi engine made its first appearance at the launch of the Discovery in 1989. It was Land Rover's third attempt at putting a turbodiesel engine into its range. The Ninety and One Ten had gained a turbodiesel option in 1986, with a beefed-up version of the old 2.5 diesel which could trace its origins back to the Series One. It sold well, but even though it used a small turbo running at fairly low boost pressure to give just 15 bhp more than the non-turbo version, the power increase in the '19J' engine led to problems with pistons and cylinder blocks cracking, sometimes at very low mileages. Fuel economy was also poor compared to the best of the Japanese competition. Meanwhile (and following the failure of 'Project Iceberg', an attempt to dieselise the Rover V8) the Range Rover had received a completely different 2.4 litre engine bought in from VM of Italy. This was more refined and powerful than Land Rover's own turbodiesel, but was expensive to buy in and soon developed a reputation for eating head gaskets. With the new Discovery scheduled for launch in 1989 Land Rover needed a powerful, reliable turbodiesel, and fast.
Hence the 200 TDi, known within Land Rover as 'Project Gemini'. The new engine was designed to be machined using the same tooling as the old 2.5 turbodiesel, so the basic dimensions and component layout remained the same. A number of major components were carried over including the crankshaft and camshaft. However the cylinder head was all new, cast in aluminium rather than iron, and using direct injection. This had been common on large commercial vehicles for many years but was still fairly rare on smaller diesels in 1989. It offered easier cold starting, lower emissions and greater fuel efficiency, at the expense of increased engine noise. To overcome the block cracking issue Land Rover bolted a large aluminium strengthener between the block and the sump.
In its original Discovery configuration the 200TDi had the injection pump mounted fairly high up on the right hand side of the engine and the turbo mounted low down on the left hand side. In 1990 the Ninety and One Ten also received 200 TDi power, with the range being renamed 'Defender' to mark the change. The Defender version of the engine had the injection pump mounted much lower, while the turbo was high up above the inlet manifold, in the same position as the old 19J turbodiesel. Manifold and exhaust changes meant that the Defender version produced around 4 bhp less than the Discovery (107 versus 111 bhp). However the core components of the engine - block, crank, pistons, camshaft and cylinder head - were identical across the two versions.

200 TDi timing cases compared - Defender on left, Discovery on right

200 TDi timing cases compared - Defender on left, Discovery on right
The 200 TDi proved very durable and economical, and the new Discovery sold in large numbers. However the 200 was a rough, noisy old thing compared to many of its competitors. It was also quite expensive to manufacture, not least because of the cast aluminium strengthener, and having to make two quite different versions of the same engine didn't help. Enter the 300 TDi - identical cylinder capacity and power output to the 200, but comprehensively redesigned to make it smoother, quieter and cheaper. Barely a single component was carried over from the 200 to the 300. Changes to the Discovery to accommodate the new engine were minimal, but the Defender needed to be extensively reworked to achieve Land Rover's aim of being able to use the exactly the same engine in both vehicles. The gearbox and transfer box were moved forwards (to the same position as the Defender V8, allowing V8 seatbox, floors, transmission tunnel, propshafts etc to be used). In conjunction with a much longer bellhousing, the engine now sat a good six inches further forward in the engine bay.
The 300 TDi had an all new block, internally strengthened to allow the cast strengthener to be dumped. All the external ancillaries were moved around: the oil filter housing now occupied the space previously taken by the offside engine mount, a piston-type vacuum pump was fitted where the fuel lift pump had been, and the engine mounting brackets (a totally new design) were moved much further back along the block. The cylinder head was redesigned with recessed combustion chambers and a modified valve rocker assembly. At the front, a single flat ribbed 'serpentine' drive belt replaced the 200's two V-profile belts, the water pump was moved to a much higher position (and made much smaller) with the power steering pump just below it. Two-stage injectors were used to reduce combustion clatter.
The 200 TDi Discovery had been available with automatic transmission but it wasn't exactly quick. For later 300 TDi Discos with the autobox, Bosch EDC 'fly by wire' throttle control was used, combined with changes to the fuelling profile and turbo boost, giving useful increases in power and torque. These engines were designated 23L.

300 TDi front end showing serpentine belt and tensioner (top centre)
The 300 TDi was available on the UK market until 1998, when new EU emission regulations led to it being replaced by the all-new TD5. It remained available for export and military markets until 2006. The Defender 'Wolf', purchased in large numbers for the British Army from 1996 onwards, used the 300 TDi, and these vehicles are expected to remain in service for a long time yet. A few late export-market 300 TDi Defenders have turned up back in the UK as personal imports.
Even then, the TDi story does not end. A Brazilian company, International Motors, acquired the right to manufacture a 2.8 litre version of the 300 TDi. A number of these engines have been imported into the UK for retrofitting to older Defenders, and the engine remains available, now with variable geometry turbo kicking out 135 bhp and enough torque to pull down a house.

Specifications
200 TDi Defender
200 TDi Discovery
300 TDi Manual
300 TDi Automatic
Capacity (cc)
2495
2495
2495
2495
Bore (mm)
90.47
90.47
90.47
90.47
Stroke (mm)
97.00
97.00
97.00
97.00
Power (bhp)
107 @ 3900 rpm
111 @ 4250 rpm
111 @ 4250 rpm
122 @ 4250 rpm
Torque (lbf. ft)
188 @ 1800 rpm
195 @ 1800 rpm
195 @ 1800 rpm
210 @ 1800 rpm
Compression ratio
19:1
19:1
19:1
19:1
Boost pressure psi
12
12
12.5
15
Displaced camshaft bearings
This is the killer. It is not unique to the TDi family, and can happen on the earlier 2.5 diesels as well. It is not that common on 200 TDis and almost unknown on 300s, but happens often enough that you need to be aware of it. The camshaft bearings are pressed into the block and then line-reamed to provide the correct bearing clearance for the camshaft. In certain circumstances, and particularly if an engine has been run very hot, one or more cam bearings can work loose and 'walk' out of position. This exposes the oilway which feeds the cam bearing, resulting in almost complete loss of oil pressure. The really bad news is that if it happens on the motorway, the oil pump will generate just enough pressure at speed to keep the pressure warning light out, but not enough to keep the crankshaft and pistons lubricated. By the time the oil light finally comes on, the destruction of the engine internals is pretty much complete.
Usually the first sign of trouble is an oil light that flickers at idle. If this happens to you, do not ignore it. Don't panic immediately - the sender unit for the oil light can fail and give this symptom. But if you change the sender and the light still flickers at idle, you will need to investigate further, and that means taking the camshaft out. A worn oil pump will also give low oil pressure, but TDi oil pumps are massive and robust and seldom give problems. Replacing camshaft bearings is a machine shop job, and if the offending bearing has spun in its housing, the block will be scrap.

Cylinder head gasket failure
These engines have an aluminium cylinder head on an iron block. The two metals expand at different rates, so even though the head is bolted down tight and dowelled as well, head gasket failure can occur typically from around 120,000 miles upwards. For vehicles used for multiple short journeys problems may appear at a much lower mileage.
There are several different types of failure. What most people think of as a 'classic' head gasket failure - overheating, pressure building up in the cooling system - is not all that common, and quite likely to be the result of a failure elsewhere in the cooling system causing the engine to overheat and warp the cylinder head. This is more common on the 300 TDi than the 200. The 300 has the water pump mounted very high up, so the coolant level does not need to drop far before it no longer reaches the pump. (The 200 can lose about two thirds of its coolant before having circulation problems). The gasket between the water pump housing and block on the 300 is also weak and prone to leaking. It is good practice with any engine to check coolant level weekly and before any long journey: with the 300 TDi it is vital. These engines will punish you heavily if you neglect this task.
More common is a failure of the head gasket between number four cylinder and the rear edge of the head. This creates a 'chuffing' noise - if you run your finger along the join between the back of the head and the block you will be able to feel the exhaust gases pulsing out.

Two typical TDi gasket failures - head gasket breaking up between number 4 cylinder and number 8 pushrod tube, and manifold gasket cracked across an inlet port
Perhaps the most common failure point is between one of the cylinders and a pushrod tube (again, usually number four cylinder). This gives you a whole variety of alarming symptoms. The engine will run very roughly, blow oil out of every single joint and seal, and if you remove the oil filler cap huge quantities of smoke will belch out. At higher revs the engine may also start to 'run away' due to oil being drawn into the affected cylinder. A fair few people have been persuaded to pay up for a reconditioned engine on the strength of these symptoms, when all that is needed is a new head gasket.
Replacing the head gasket on a TDi engine is not difficult, although you may find some nasty surprises when you lift the head (see 'head cracking' below).

Cylinder head cracking
TDi heads are fairly robust but can develop cracks in the casting, especially if badly overheated. The 300 head seems less strong that the 200. Cracks around the heater plugs and injectors are pretty common and can be ignored if very small. Cracks between the valves are more serious as there is the danger that these will spread into the waterways in the head, and also that they may cause the valve seats to work loose and drop out of position. If removing the head for any reason, it should be throughly inspected for signs of cracking. 300 TDi heads are available new and surprisingly cheap for such a major component. 200 heads have been unavailable for several years. At the moment there are still enough good used heads around to meet demand, but I suspect that before long people will have to start looking at having cracked heads welded up.

Manifold gasket failure
More common on 300 than 200, and I have no idea why. Possibly something to do with the exhaust manifold design, as the manifold bolt pattern is identical and the 300 gasket looks stronger than the 200. On a turbodiesel engine there is always a little oil in the induction system, from the turbo bearings. The manifold gasket cracks across the ports, and with the inlet manifold being pressurised by the turbo, oil is blown out through the cracks and plasters the side of the block. Not serious, not hard to fix, but very messy if you leave it for long.

Top end oil leaks
The 200 TDi has no fewer than eight rubber seals on the rocker cover - three conical seals under the securing bolts, an 'O' ring on the oil separator, half-moon seal at each end of the head, gasket between rocker cover and head, and an oil seal in the filler cap. All these seals harden with age and leak. On the 300 the half-moon seals were deleted, and the conical seals replaced with rubber rings on the head bolts. I have seen TDis that were leaking enough oil onto the exhaust manifold to constitute a fire hazard. If your engine is leaking oil onto the head, change all the seals - they are not expensive. The half-moon seals benefit from a small amount of RTV sealant in the groove to help them seal properly, but there should be no need to use any kind of sealant on the rocker cover gasket.

Turbo failures
The Garrett T25 turbocharger is a durable old beast and can easily do 200,000 miles or more on a well-maintained engine, but failure is not unknown. Remove the air intake pipe, grasp the end of the impeller and check for play. A little side to side movement is normal, but there should be no fore and aft play. Some oil mist on the inside of the intercooler and pipework is acceptable, but if liquid oil is accumulating in the pipework, or the vehicle emits blue smoke from the exhaust when accelerating, the turbo is probably past its best. In the end the bearings will collapse, destroying the seals and allowing oil to be pumped into the engine. Diesels run very well on hot engine oil, your engine will run away and eat itself. A badly worn turbo will often whistle loudly, especially once the bearings have worn enough for the impeller blades to catch on the housing and get bent out of shape.
The wastegate can seize shut, especially on engines that have been left standing. This leads to excessive boost pressure which is not good for the life of your engine. You should be able to move the wastegate arm against the spring-loaded actuator with a pair of pliers. If seized, you can normally detach the actuator and work the arm back and forth until it moves freely. The diaphragm in the actuator can split, as can the pipes that run from there to the injection pump, resulting in a loss of power as the injection pump is no longer able to increase fuelling in response to turbo boost. And very occasionally the bearing for the wastegate arm will move in the housing so that the wastegate flap no longer lines up with the port it is supposed to cover, resulting in no turbo boost at all.
Turbo boost can be measured by plumbing a boost gauge into the actuator pipework, and adjusted using the threaded adjuster on the actuator pushrod.

Timing belt misalignment (300TDi)
Almost unknown on the 200TDi, very common on older 300s. The timing case is not strong enough and can be distorted if the precise sequence is not followed when building up the engine and fitting the injection pump. This puts the injection pump pulley very fractionally out of true, and the belt then rubs against the shoulder on the tensioner. It gradually wears until it is about half its original width, then breaks, often at only half the recommended change interval.
Land Rover recognised this problem quite early in the 300 TDi's life and introduced two modification kits, depending on the exact age of the engine. One includes a new timing case, and a redesigned tensioner, idler and crank pulley. The other consists of just the tensioner, idler and pulley. Not all engines were affected, and there are still a fair few 300s running the early tensioner setup with no problems. The only way to be sure is to remove the timing cover and have a look inside. If the timing case is full of black fluff and one edge of the belt has been worn away, you have an alignment problem. For more information click here.

Loose crankshaft pulley bolt
The bolt at the front of the crankshaft is done up to a high torque and Loctited for good measure. To remove and refit it (when changing the timing belt) you need a crankshaft locking tool. People try to do the job without, and as a result the bolt is not sufficiently tightened. They usually don't bother with Loctite either. So the bolt comes loose. The front pulley and the toothed pulley for the cambelt start to move back and forth on the crankshaft and very quickly wear away the locating keys, and chew up the grooves in the crankshaft nose that the keys sit in. Usually by this stage the engine is running very badly due to the timing being well out, but if left long enough the key shears, valves hit pistons, clatter clatter bang and you might be looking at a new engine (although more often it just bends the pushrods into strange shapes).
If the damage to the keyways is only very slight you may get away with new keys and pulleys and plenty of Loctite, but I have seen a few engines where there is not enough left of the keyway to hold the key in position, and that means a new crankshaft.

Injection pump failures
Both the 200 and 300 use a Bosch VE rotary injection pump. This is a strong, proven unit fitted to countless millions of vehicles. However, it is not immune from problems. A few years ago there was a spate of pump failures where the internal components started to break up, filling the pump with fragments of metal. This was attributed to poor quality supermarket diesel with inadequate lubricating properties. Usually the first sign of trouble was an engine that continued running when the engine was switched off, due to the plunger on the stop solenoid being jammed with small metal fragments. There are likely to be a few pumps still about which are damaged, but not enough to stop them from running. So if you have an engine that will not stop when switched off, take a good look inside when you remove the stop solenoid. Any metal fragments are bad news.
More recently, and coinciding with the peak of the great biodiesel craze, I had a spate of pump failures due to serious corrosion of the internal parts. Something sitting in a bath of diesel should not rust, and the only possible cause I can think of is badly-processed biodiesel or cheap vegetable oil with a high water content. I haven't seen one of these failures for a while now, but it has made me very wary of recommending the use of vegetable oil (either virgin or recycled). A reconditioned pump at 600 will take a big chunk out of the cost saving on the fuel.

Vacuum pump failures (300TDi)
The 200 TDi uses a vane type rotary pump to power the brake servo, driven off the end of the oil pump drive. This is exactly the same unit used on the older 2.5 engines and near enough unbreakable. Loss of servo assistance on a 200 TDi is much more likely to be a failed servo than a faulty pump. The 300 however uses a Wabco plunger type pump driven off the camshaft, and these pumps are a pain. Two main problems: firstly the end cover works loose (it is riveted on) leading to oil leaking around the cover plate. Secondly the internals often wear, giving a regular ticking sound which increases with engine speed and sounds a bit like a misadjusted valve rocker. Eventually the internal wear becomes great enough for the pump to stop working, and they aren't cheap. There was a duff batch of OEM pumps released onto the market last year which tended to fail after about 30 miles, but hopefully they should all have been recalled by now.

Drive belt noise (300TDi)
The 300 TDi uses a single flat multi-ribbed 'serpentine' belt to drive the cooling fan, water pump, power steering pump and alternator. It has a spring-loaded self adjusting tensioner. On older 300s it is not uncommon for the belt to make a 'chirping' noise, especially at low speeds, due to slight misalignment of the pulleys. The two most likely causes are: 1. Worn tensioner bearing - can sometimes (but not always) be detected by removing the tensioner and spinning the pulley. Spraying white grease into the bearing may temporarily cure the problem. 2. Worn cooling fan hub bearing. This bearing is built into the timing cover and is non-replaceable. When it wears you have to replace the whole cover which is Genuine Parts only, and expensive. There should be no side to side play in the fan hub - if it waggles about the bearing is shot.

Cooling fan viscous coupling failure
Both 200 and 300 have a viscous coupling built into the cooling fan, and these fail with age, resulting in a tendency to overheat in heavy traffic. With the engine hot and stopped, if you can spin the fan freely with no resistance the viscous coupling is shot. It is screwed onto the drive pulley with a left-handed thread and needs a special spanner to remove.

Water pump failure
The 200 TDi has a robust, old-fashioned water pump which will eventually wear out - either the bearings fail (check for side to side play in the pulley) or the seals go (water leaks from around the spindle). The 300 TDi has a smaller, cheaply made pump which suffers from the same problems, but it is also not unknown for the impeller to fall off the spindle. If you have an overheating problem with no obvious cause, it is worth removing the water pump to check that the impeller is still attached.

Valve stem cap failures
Both 200 and 300 have caps on top of the valve stems to reduce wear on the ends of the valve rockers. At high mileages, and especially if valve clearances are too wide, the valve stem can punch the centre out of the cap, resulting in slight loss of power and a loud tapping noise from under the rocker cover. Caps can be replaced without having to remove the rocker shaft - just loosen the adjusting screw until there is enough room to extract the remains of the broken cap and pop in a new one.
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  #32  
Old March 26th, 2013, 01:46 PM
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Great writeup. A couple of things. 200TDI have two stage injectors. People have said 300TDI heads can be fitted to a 200TDI.
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  #33  
Old March 26th, 2013, 01:57 PM
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Yep- 300 head bolts right onto a 200 block if one does suffer one of these random head cracks
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  #34  
Old March 27th, 2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrc.swb View Post
There are other that feel the same way I do.

Diesels are nice, but overrated.
Count me in. When a "short story" ends up being a long list of known issues, all of them serious, I dunno, maybe it's me, but I get cold feet.

When my 300 TDI gives up the ghost, nothing remotely similar will occupy its space. Make mine eight jumping cylinders!
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Old March 28th, 2013, 08:40 PM
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Check out this vendors headline

http://rovahfarm.com/
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  #36  
Old March 28th, 2013, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
Check out this vendors headline

http://rovahfarm.com/
We have the same offer for folks on the west coast...
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  #37  
Old March 28th, 2013, 10:02 PM
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Om617...

Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
200tdi - $2-3k?
300tdi - $3-4k?
OM617 - $1k + adapter for tranny, & motor mounts...
4.6 v8 - $1-2k?

Also any idea on HP/Torque breakout?

And the weights?

rdavisinva - the OM617's only need a couple of wires to run, correct? They look like a great option (especially if like that other thread - rigs coming in from the UK need to be stock and won't come over with the 200tdi for some more years) for import Defenders. Problem is, if and when I do get around to doing a OM617 they will be all used up
The OM617 conversion in a 90, 110 requires a custom oil pan.
The top is cast and the lower sump is welded (all aluminum) and is a lot of work to manufacture, but well worth the effort.
Then there is the custom motor mounts, backing plate, flywheel, transmission adapter, glow plug relay, radiator & frame & intercooler, and so on.
The pick-n-pull usually has OM617 engines for $300 or so.
Stock are about 125 HP, but with an intercooler and higher boost can give much more.

In 1977 Mercedes put one in a racer and won the land speed record with 156/7 MPH averaging over 3-5 days, don't remember the exact details, but you get the concept.
Mercedes fitted an intercooler with larger plungers and a larger than stock turbo.
Results were 160 HP at first and later 190 HP.
There are people in scandinavia with 80s era W123 MB sedans putting out 300+ HP on youtube drifting with a souped up OM617.

Wiring, what wiring? a wire for temp gauge, we modify the thermostat housing for a thermo electric fan switch, and the temp and alternator plug plugs right in.

The shutoff is vacuum controlled and the engine has a V-pump for the brake booster and shutoff button.

All used up and gone... hard to find, not likely.
According to the local MB dealer, more than half a million OM617 engines were imported into USA in 300D, 300SD, 300CD, and 300TD vehicles from 1977 to 1985. They were also used in the Huggland tracked vehicles and military vehicles up until something like 2005.

Since they rarely go bad, junkyards have them in wrecks or for things like rust outs and transmission or other failures.
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  #38  
Old March 28th, 2013, 10:10 PM
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so is a 300TDi a "legal in the US" engine? over in the "busted in NC" thread it sound like maybe not? I gues syou could get a nice one and stow it away for 5-6 more years. . .. ?
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  #39  
Old March 29th, 2013, 08:03 AM
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Thank you Uncle Douglas for the detailed story of the 200TDi and 300TDi.

Do you have an equivalent write up on the 2.5D?

Thanks,

Mike
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  #40  
Old March 29th, 2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago Montenegr View Post

Count me in. When a "short story" ends up being a long list of known issues, all of them serious, I dunno, maybe it's me, but I get cold feet.

When my 300 TDI gives up the ghost, nothing remotely similar will occupy its space. Make mine eight jumping cylinders!
If someone did a writeup of the Rover V8 and it's issues, you'd probably stick with your diesel.
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