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  #1  
Old January 9th, 2006, 10:06 AM
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Exclamation Engine Proble: Please Advise

Hey All:

I ran into some trouble with my truck over the winter holiday and I was hoping some of you could shed some light on the issue. Here's what happened. I was cruising along I10 outside of Tallahassee Fl running about 75-80mph (noting unusual for my truck) when I began to head up a hill and the trans down shifted from OD and the rpm subsequently increased, that's when I noticed a strange noise coming from the engine. I couldn't exactly tell what it was or what it sounded like so I slowed down, rolled up the windows and killed the radio to take a better listen. The noise was the valves ticking, under normal operation you cannot hear the valves ticking very easily but now they were very easy to hear. It started slowly (with respect to noise level) but as I moved down the road 30 seconds to a minute later the noise really picked up. Then the oil light began to flicker, it didn't stay on but it would come on for a second and cut off, mean while I'm looking for the next exit which is literally right in from of me so I take it. The ticking (sounded like a motor without oil) increased in noise level until I killed the motor and drifted into a gas station no more than 100ft from the exit. When I stopped I popped the hood and checked the oil. Oil level was perfect, just as it was a couple of hours ago before I began the journey. I started to look around the engine (I'm in no way a mechanic but I do know my way around the engine) nothing out of the ordinary, the engine was no hotter than normal, other fluids were normal and I crawled underneath and no signs of any leakage at all. What to do??? I decided to drive on and see what happens, when I cranked it started right up and sounded perfect, one last look under the hood and I was off back on I10 this time traveling around 55-60 keeping a close ear to how the motor was responding. I made it to my destination never having another problem (although I never drove over 2000-2300 rpms). I have a couple ideas on what it is but thought I'd get some feedback from you all. A little back ground, I am as meticulous as anyone can be with their 90, I never miss any scheduled maintenance on the truck and am often called compulsive by my father who thinks I waste too much time/effort on my 90. Before my trip I ran an engine flush (amsoil) by directions and filled back up with amsoil synthetic. That's all I can think of at the moment, let me know what you think and thanks. gh



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  #2  
Old January 9th, 2006, 10:16 AM
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Glenn Guinto
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Sounds like an oil pump failing or clogged maybe? Also, you'll probably get more responses in the technical section - which I'm sure either CVC or Mike will move this thread to.
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  #3  
Old January 9th, 2006, 10:35 AM
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I'll move to the help section but is this a 97 with a serp belt setup? Serp belt oil pumps are better then the distributer driven pumps as they will self prime, maybe for some reason you lost your prime in the oil pump?
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  #4  
Old January 9th, 2006, 11:11 AM
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If this truck has the new style pump the most likely explanation is that sludge in teh pan has clogged the pump screen of inlet pipe.

If the truck has the older pump you have have sludge or you may have a worn out pump.

A less likely possiblility is a bad timing cover gasket - a split gasket (split in the wrong spot) can let air into the oil suction line and cause a loss of prime.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 11:23 AM
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Hey Guys: Thanks for the response. John & Glenn, my mechanic said the same thing (sludge clogging the pump screen). This may be a result from the flush I did before my winter road trip. He normally does not recommend engine flushes but in this case he said to do it again and replace with fresh oil. Note: he has rarely had to replace oil pumps, has anyone with a LR done that recently? Thanks. gh
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Old January 9th, 2006, 11:37 AM
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IF it's the older style pump it's not too bad, but to do the newer style pump you really need to replace the front cover wich is big bucks if bought new, I think in the $600+ range.

Best bet would be to drop the oil pan, clean out the gunk and clean off the pickup screen and you should be all set. Droping the oil pan isn't very hard, just a little messy.
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  #7  
Old January 9th, 2006, 03:58 PM
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If you had enough sludge to clog the pump screen I strongly suggest taking the motor apart to fix the problem. Remove the pan, remove the rocker covers, the intake, the rockers and lifters. Tank clean everything you remove and manually clean the engine that you have exposed.

Chances of continued survival will be a lot better if you do that
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  #8  
Old January 9th, 2006, 04:55 PM
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For what it's worth, AB is listing the cover @ $450 or so. Pulling the pan and inspecting the pickup is an easy 30 minute job. Good luck and do post back with what you find.
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Old January 10th, 2006, 09:37 AM
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I agree with John---if you have clogged your screen, cleaning it will only delay it happening again. When cleaning the engine, pay particular attention to the oil journals/passages and make sure they are clear (clean them all out last thing before reassembly). Upon start up, I would run a thin oil for a short while to help flush things along and then drain it. It sounds like a pain because it is, but if you are clogging your pump, you are clogging your oil passages and robbing key bearings of lubrication--this one day job can save your engine. You can usually get a good idea of the sludge factor of the engine by looking through the oil fill hole, but taking the rocker covers off takes almost no time at all. good luck.
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Old January 10th, 2006, 11:32 AM
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Once you have cleaned the engine I'd use Mobil 1 0-40 oil, changed every 5,000 miles. The Mobil 1 0-40 has the strongest detergent package I know of. Very effective at cleaning up engines
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  #11  
Old January 10th, 2006, 01:18 PM
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Hey Guys: Thanks for all of the awesome feedback. I am overwhelmed at the insight and knowledge all of you bring to the table. This is what my Mech. and I discussed and please provide your feedback. He instructed me to put a new oil filter on and run another flush through the motor. Then drain the oil and remove the pan (purchased the pan gaskets this morning from RN) and take a good hard look from the perspective. From there (he said) we should be able to gauge the veracity of the problem. He also mentioned that the oil passage ways should drain after the flush and possibly there hopefully will not be any further action. If the oil pan and screen looks "suspect" then removing the intake etc..., is a must. The guy (my mechanic) is a knowledgeable guy, if a resume means anything for a mechanic this guy has all the holes punched. Let me know your thoughts please and again thank you all for the help. gh
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Old January 10th, 2006, 04:18 PM
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I'll voice a slightly different possibility, only because it involved a hill. Might be a cracked pickup tube as well. The slight change in incline may have exposed the crack and started letting air into the oil system.

Though since you mentioned a recent flush of the oil system, I'd vote towards gunk clogging the screen. Still, check the whole pickup tube just in case and replace the gasket where it bolts on.

-Hans
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  #13  
Old January 12th, 2006, 08:34 AM
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Hey Guys: I had serious trouble removing the oil pan late yesterday evening. I removed all of the 1/2 in bolts (do not have a sway bar to contend with) but it would not even budge. I then used a razor knife to cut the grey seal where I could (could only really access the driver side of the pan for that purpose. Nonetheless, I think I may be missing something; it shouldn't be this difficult to remove. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks. gh
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  #14  
Old January 12th, 2006, 08:54 AM
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You did get the ones at the back of the pan, right? If you got all of them, it should pop right off. I've hit the with the base of my hand to knock them loose, but that's all it takes. Be careful of the pickup when you pull it down.
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Old January 12th, 2006, 09:11 AM
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Hey Anthony: I am pretty sure I've gotten them all off. I think I removed 16 app. when lying on my back looking up there is 4 on the rear 4 towards the front of the truck (two of which there were bolts not screws) and along the sides probably 4 or so down each side. All of which were facing down, I did not see or remove any bolts that were let’s say horizontal, only vertically aligned bots were removed. I know that is confusing but you know what I mean. I'm beginning to think there are bots up top where I cannot see, only because it would not even budge and I pulled and poked etc..., but did not do anything to compromise the integrity of the seal (bending the metal) because I do have to put it back on. Prying with a flat-head was/is not an option. Please respond. gh
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  #16  
Old January 12th, 2006, 10:06 AM
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The original white pan sealant was weak and the pans would pop right off...but leaked a lot. Land Rover changed the sealant specification to 'Right Stuff' gasket sealant. It doesn't leak if applied correctly but the pan will be hell to get off...and you may bend/warp the flange doing it. I use a wide, thin gasket scraper and pound it into the joint to get it started and then use a ladyfoot prybar to break the pan free. It can get ugly. I have a spare pan from a classic if you manage to destroy yours. Also, I would be less worried about a plugged pickup screen and more worried about debris in the pressure relief valve jamming it open. That will give you good pressure cold but pressure will drop off as the oil warms and thins. When you drained the oil, was it ok or chunky? The pickup has a metal screen that has about the same size holes as you'd find in a screen door. It would take lots of big chunks to plug it...and you'd notice those when you drained the oil. It takes a much smaller particle to jam open the pressure relief valve and I believe that the relief valve is before the filter...so whatever garbage you cut loose in the flush went through the relief valve before it went to the filter. If you have a 1994-1995 D90, the pump is external and the relief valve can be easily accessed through the port plug on the bottom. if you remove the large plug and take out the spring, the pressure relief valve should slide out. if it is stuck you can capture the back of it with a 12mm tap and pull it out. If that is the case, clean it carefully and polish it with a bit of emery cloth. it should slide freely in it's bore. Doing this will cause the oil pump to lose prime. take a tube of Lubriplate and put the nozzle into the bore for the relief valve (with the valve out). Force as much lubriplate into the pump gears as you can to allow the pump to reprime and put the relief valve back together. I also recommend fitting an oil pressure gauge so you can monitor what is really going on. 8-10 psi will turn the light out and be ok at idle but will wipe out the cam and bearings if driven. If the relief valve is so stuck that it won't come out, replace it and the housing. If you have a 1997 with the internal pump you will probably have to remove the cover to access the relief valve. I believe it is under a small cover held with a circlip. I've not dismantled one of those yet...they are less serviceable and since the housing is aluminum has a better chance of being galled. I, personally, would put the pan bolts back in and look at the relief valve first. Call me at the shop if you need more help, I can talk faster than I type.
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  #17  
Old January 13th, 2006, 09:26 AM
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Here’s the update: I was finally able to pull the oil pan off. It was very difficult to say the least. What finally got it was what I will affectionately refer to as “Defender Calisthenics”. I positioned my body so I was vertically aligned with the truck, head at the top of the truck (under the bull bar) and feet wedged in somewhere at the rear of the truck. I then took a 12”flat head screw driver and put it across the drain snout/plug. Then in a series of up and down motions consistent with an odd type of pull up (reminding me of my Army days) I heard and felt the seal give way. Pretty simple from that point, gently removing it from the block carefully navigating the oil pick up and stick. At first glance everything looked ok, then in better light the hard reality of sludge and debris was painfully obvious to see. “Huston we have a problem” I could not believe the amount of sludge and sludge particles in the bottom of the pan. The previous owner had to intentionally try to gum this thing up. I removed what I could with shop rags and degreaser and now am soaking it in gasoline to break up the frozen fudge baked on the bottom of the pan. It gets worse, I then went to pull the pick up off which again, at first glance looked ok, the screen (roughly the size of a half dollar) was shiny and no obstructions were visible. But upon removal (the bolts were all gummed up and that should tell me something) a very black chunky substance oozed out of both ends and onto me and my shop floor. Again, I am in disbelief the truck was in this condition. So, the oil pick up is now spending the next couple of days at the spa with the oil pan until I figure out my next move. Also, when the pan is removed I can see the oil passage ways which I would guess are 55-65% occluded. I was taking a small flat head and removing what I could with it which is probably a futile effort. Nonetheless, I have to thank Rob Dassler for his help yesterday, taking time out of his busy schedule to speak with me at length on this issue and others I can’t say thank you enough.
Two questions: first I noticed when I pulled the pan off there was no gasket/ diaphragm, the only two things holding the pan on was the bolts and the squeeze grey gasket. Is this ok, I ordered an oil pan gasket from RN and now think I may not need it. Secondly, is it possible to pull apart the oil pick up, I didn’t see any obvious way but maybe you do. Thanks. gh
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  #18  
Old January 15th, 2006, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robisonservice
Once you have cleaned the engine I'd use Mobil 1 0-40 oil, changed every 5,000 miles. The Mobil 1 0-40 has the strongest detergent package I know of. Very effective at cleaning up engines
FWIW I use Mobil 1, and my wife's Disco has 220K miles on it.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 09:11 AM
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I've enjoyed this thread because I had this same problem with my "1995".

I purchased it last summer with 103K on the odometer. First time off road, lost oil pressure and had to preform a on trail pan drop, throughly cleaned pan and screen ect...

Question? I poked a pencil size hole in the pick up screen to allow for more free flow of oil, Will this create any problems or should I be OK?

Shawom
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Old January 16th, 2006, 09:18 AM
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Hey Shawom: I couldn't answer that question, Rob could however.
Soaking the pan in gasoline for the weekend didn't get the job done, I purchased some heavy duty industrial strength cleaner (deep purple, or purple stuff, something like that) and after a soak in that it came clean, now looks brand new along with the pick up. I used the right stuff as a gasket and put it back on yesterday. While down there I decided to replace the oil cooler lines (stainless) and the alternator (I know it is not related but since I'm dirty).

Two questions: First when inserting the oil cooler lines back in both in the block and radiator is there a little rubber o-ring that should go onto the male end of the lines???? Is so which one, or all of them????

Secondly, I know this has been discussed but which alternator to choose? The 120amp from Rover Connection or a Mean Green 200amp. Thanks again. gh
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