Dual Battery Solenoid fried.. literally - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:22 PM
jijalicious
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Jiman Khosravan
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Thumbs down Dual Battery Solenoid fried.. literally

So I get home... park the car... my friend goes, "Your car is smoking!"

I see white smoke all inside the cabin and coming out from underneath the car.

I realize it's the solenoid for my dual battery... i'm 5 seconds from taking the fire extinguisher to it.. but instead get tools out and cut it out.

After 4 months... this is what happened.

Any ideas?

~Jij
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  #2  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:23 PM
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john
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wow lucky you caught it!
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  #3  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:25 PM
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Steve
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Ouch. And I'm a few days away from installing the exact same solenoid in my truck.
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  #4  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 05:32 PM
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Bill Adams
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Oy yoy yoy. I'd be sending that thing back to them. All's I'll say is that you get what you pay for. I would be willing to offer my assistance in installing a real dual charge system if you'd like.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
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  #5  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 05:51 PM
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So much for the "Fuse Blown Light"
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  #6  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 09:01 PM
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steve
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Damn.
I have had a hellroaring for the last 8 years and no problems.

What brand it that?
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  #7  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 11:15 PM
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Jiman Khosravan
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Bill A.... or other mems... point me to a real dual system.

At this point... I rather pay $ now.. and get a system that works.. instead of seeing my car in blazes.

My purpose of dual battery... main will run car/alarm... aux will run stereo/amp, ac voltage converter, fog lights.

~Ji
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  #8  
Old March 22nd, 2011, 11:28 PM
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Ditch the dual battery system and get a PM-1 or an Odyssey.
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  #9  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 03:14 AM
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Tony Sims
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I'd vote Hellroaring, very good kit.

I would also say I don't see a need for two batteries with your list of equipment. Just make sure you have an alternator that can handle the full load and you're set. Until you have a real power hog like a winch, or you are running auxiliary equipment 24 hours a day for camping (fridge), a dual battery setup is weight and complexity you don't need.
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[appropriated from Ren Ching] Most faults can usually be traced to the badge on the grill.
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  #10  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 07:42 AM
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Bill Adams
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Jiman, I can point you but you have to decide which system is best for you. I can swing by one day this week and see what you have and make some recommendations. I'm not available on the weekends. PM me your phone.

This National Luna thing is not a true isolator. It will allow a bad battery to drain into a good battery rendering them both useless. It is only a parallelling switch controlled by a timer.

One other thing. I see a large black wire going to one of the cable lugs on the solenoid. This should be a large gauge red wire that is connected to the second battery. Did you run out of red wire and use black for some reason? Or is it just the shrink wrap from the end of the cable?
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1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
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  #11  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 08:18 AM
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I'd ditch the two and go with one as well for the use you are stating.
But looking at your photo, are you sure this was wired correctly? - http://www.nationalluna.com/Datashee...structions.pdf

Sorry I just saw Bill caught that.
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  #12  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS888 View Post
I'd vote Hellroaring, very good kit.

I would also say I don't see a need for two batteries with your list of equipment. Just make sure you have an alternator that can handle the full load and you're set. Until you have a real power hog like a winch, or you are running auxiliary equipment 24 hours a day for camping (fridge), a dual battery setup is weight and complexity you don't need.
I have to disagree on both points. The Hellroaring isolator is a zener diode type isolator. You can tell by the massive heat sink. The problem with these types is that the isolator drops voltage by as much as 1.2V! (this is conspicuously absent from the spec sheet. wonder why) The system may think the second battery is charged when it is really a full volt below the start battery. Ouch.
Better is a Schottky Diode type isolator which has very little voltage drop across the terminals. These also need a big heat sink, but don't suck up charge current. Expensive. A 150V Schottky Diode from Digi-Key is about $90 just for the diode. You have to get a heat sink and pot the whole business in epoxy, blah blah blah.....
The current best practice in the isolation split charging world is what is known as a voltage sensing relay or VSR. These allow the charge current to be siphoned off to a second feed at a desired set point, without allowing paralleling. This is important because you very rarely if ever want to parallel the two battery banks.

As to not needing a second battery, I submit that every automobile ever made needs a dual charging system. This would put AAA out of business of course if cars never had dead batteries. The idea of course is to have a second battery not just for back up, but to remove chores such as operating the body systems and accessories from the start battery so that it is dedicated to starting the engine.

For our friend here, he needs to drop some coin on some actual real live batteries. Not the Optima ones that have already been widely debunked, but a Deka brand AGM house battery of group 27 size or larger. I don't want to get into the whys of needing a big house battery but I'll just say that for our purposes, the biggest heaviest battery possible is what you need.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #13  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 08:42 AM
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The hellroaring setup does not cause that kind of voltage drop. It is very clearly stated on their site. that said, I have never used one or built a dual battery setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea

The Hellroaring isolator is a zener diode type isolator. You can tell by the massive heat sink. The problem with these types is that the isolator drops voltage by as much as 1.2V! (this is conspicuously absent from the spec sheet. wonder why)
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Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
1988 RRC- "Chewbacca"
1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
1972 SIII 88"- "GreenHELL" now in NC
1988 90 "Eric the Half a Bee" half a truck, sold for parts
1991 RRC- never got a name- long since recycled
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  #14  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 09:24 AM
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why not build your own? Make it manually switched to boot. We as Defender guys for the most part despise electrics. So, find a nice heavy early 70s Ford HD starter solenoid, swith it manually to charge/engage once the truck is running, and turn it off prior to stopping the truck. You don't have to charge it every time you run the truck, just once or twice a week...
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  #15  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 10:28 AM
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Just get a single Odyssey 31-PC2150S and be done with it.
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  #16  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 10:48 AM
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Tony Sims
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I ran a Hellroaring for two years (and the unit is now on a friend's truck), and according to the volt meters wired to each battery, they both were being charged to full capacity.

That truck was used for overlanding, with the main battery serving all demand (starting and electrical accessories, winch, refrigerator, voltage inverter), and the backup battery in reserve for starting. Only once did I ever have to engage the backup battery to start the truck, and that was after 36 hours parked, running the Engel fridge and LED lighting, and using the stereo and inverter for hours. The main battery was a no-name lead acid from a car parts store in the US, the backup was an Optima red top I bought used from a friend.
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[appropriated from Ren Ching] Most faults can usually be traced to the badge on the grill.
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Originally Posted by chris snell
This is straight out of the Manual for Build Builders.
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  #17  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 11:53 AM
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Bill Adams
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OK Just read thru all the boilerplate on the Hellroaring site. Looks like they use the Schottky diode and not a zener diode. Will work OK. Has remote emergency parallel capability. Very similar to the Yandina. I stand corrected.

------ Follow up post added March 23rd, 2011 12:00 PM ------

Odyssey and Deka both made in the USA.
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Bill Adams

1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #18  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 06:35 PM
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Jiman Khosravan
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Just spent about 15 minutes with mark from hellroaring.. very helpful...

So it seems theres 2 setups... aux and backup.

I'm thinking backup would be best because you would connect ALL your loads to the main one.. lights, stereo, inverter...etc... and if it dies, hit a switch and a FULL battery is ready to jump start the car.

The AUX setup, if you leave your lights, and the main dies, apparently the cabling can't handle the AUX battery to jump start the car... although all you wuold need to do is remote seat, swap cables and you're good to do.

$190 BIC 95150B + $47 remote switch + $25 inline 150AMP fuse + $13 S&H = $275

I'm I good or did I completely miss the mark as usual?

~Jij
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  #19  
Old March 23rd, 2011, 11:18 PM
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Goddamn, you could by an Odyssey or Platinum PM-1 for that alone.
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  #20  
Old March 24th, 2011, 03:35 AM
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Tony Sims
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I'm still in the "you don't need dual batteries" camp. Get one good big battery and simplify. But if you want it anyway, then yes, set it up as main/backup.
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[appropriated from Ren Ching] Most faults can usually be traced to the badge on the grill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
This is straight out of the Manual for Build Builders.
Tony
1984 110 "Smokey" (sold)
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