difference: Disco 200tdi and Defender 200tdi? - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old May 13th, 2004, 03:28 PM
jaherring's Avatar
jaherring
Status: Offline
Jason Herring
94 D90 ST #1253
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Pedro, CA, USA
Posts: 582
difference: Disco 200tdi and Defender 200tdi?

Hi,

I am considering a TDI upgrade for an '86 LR 90 and have a line on a 200tdi, but it's from a Discovery. I've been recently told that it's quite different from the 200tdi in a 90/110/Defender.

Has anyone installed a Disco 200tdi in a D90? What are the different problems associated with it?

I originally thought it would be a no-brainer upgrade to the anemic 2.5L n/a diesel currently in the vehicle, but I might not be able to use this engine.

Thanks--
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old May 14th, 2004, 12:54 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
As I understand it the disco 200tdi won't fit straight in.
1) the turbo is in the wrong place and fouls the bulkhead
2) the fuel injection pump sits much lower and gets in the way of the steering box but that might not be an issue with a left hooker.
3) the front cover for the timing belt is different [as are the timing belts themselves]

When I was looking for my 200tdi I was advised to hold out for a defender engine because it wil drop straight in. I did, and Andy Sargent at AJS was right. The engine dropped straight onto the chassis mounts, the gearbox (LT77) bolted straight up and the exhaust was an off the shelf fit.
Having said that most things can be made to fit if you:-
a) have enough time
b) have a fabrication shop
c) have enough skill
or
d) pay someone else for all the above.
My good friend fitted a disco 200 tdi into an 88" series 2A but you won't find many of the parts needed in the LR parts book!
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 14th, 2004, 03:56 PM
Chris Cox's Avatar
Chris Cox
Status: Offline
Chris Cox
94 D90 SW, 300tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 355
You will probably be better off finding a good used 300tdi/R380 kit. Decent 200tdi's are in such great demand that they are much more expensive than 300tdi's.
__________________
How in the world have I spent this much money and still don't have a running vehicle?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old May 14th, 2004, 05:08 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
300 tdi's are all the same regardless of the vehicle they are out of.
They won't drop straight in either though. You'll need to change the chassis mounts for the engine and get new floor and transmission tunnel.
Nothing is ever easy. Hold out for a 200 tdi the engine is sturdier, they rarely eat their timing belts
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 14th, 2004, 05:57 PM
jaherring's Avatar
jaherring
Status: Offline
Jason Herring
94 D90 ST #1253
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Pedro, CA, USA
Posts: 582
Thanks for your responses, great info.

There is a perfectly good 200tdi available to me for under $1K, but it's out of a Disco. If the mods required to make it fit the D90 are less expensive/less trouble than the 300tdi (which requires the new tranny... or, some funky mounting of the engine to mate to the LT77) then I'd go with that. Maybe a few years down the road I'd consider something like the 2.8, but for now that's out of my price range (I am in the process of buying a house, also - yikes).

For example, what does a different timing cover/belt mean to me? Will that interfere with something on the D90? I'm happy to put in an electric fan, so it's just accessories to worry about & this truck has manual steering and no aircon (though I'd like to add that later).

If the turbo is different, is it because the intake/exhaust manifolds are substantially different? Would that just mean new exhaust, or is it even more trouble?

If the fuel pump gets in the way (though, as mentioned, this is a LHD so maybe not) can't I just relocate it? If it's a mechanical pump I could pick up the Def version; if it's electric, that's easy.

The trouble is that t's hard to find a Defender 200tdi in the US, so I might not have that option readily available to me.

I have done alot of engine swaps, but nothing that required special fabrication (eg big block Mopar in a SB engine bay, etc etc). I wouldn't want to have to fabricate engine mounts in a new position or try to mate an engine and tranny which don't bolt together easily if I'm doing this all/mostly myself.

I'm pretty confident the 200tdi would be a great upgrade for my truck and I'd be happy for quite awhile/until I could afford the 2.8.

I guess I could consider a V8 (3.9L? 4.0L? 4.6L?) as well down the road....

Anyone out there have a grenaded Defender 200tdi for sale cheap?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 15th, 2004, 09:22 PM
roverx's Avatar
roverx
Status: Offline
Scott Preston
1969 Ser IIA Tdi Hybrid
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 544
200 tdi defender

You may want to give Peter Janney a shout at www.badgercoachworks.com. He has a 86 XMOD 200 Tdi that he sourced for $2K in very nice shape.
__________________
Scott Preston
1969 Ser IIA 300 Tdi hybrid
2002 Ford F250 Crew cab 7.3 diesel
2003 VW Jetta wagon 1.9 Tdi 5 speed
1995 Range Rover Classic 300 Tdi SoftDash (My Son's)

"Be the person your dog thinks you are"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 16th, 2004, 02:09 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
The fuel pump I was refering to is the injection pump. You can't relocate that!
If you're happy with an electric fan that's good too as it removes another problem. The only remaining issue would be the turbo position which I'm 100% certain is different and from what I've been told fouls things in the bulkhead area. I'll try and take a pic of my instalation and post it if that would help.
Try and get hold of the rad & intrecooler that go with the engine.
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old May 16th, 2004, 11:35 PM
whistler110's Avatar
whistler110
Status: Offline
Mike Johnstone
ex-mod 110
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pemberton, B.C., Canada
Posts: 184
The big difference between the Disco and Def 200TDI's is the location of the turbo and the exhaust manifold. The Defender turbo is placed higher than the Disco. You can make a Disco 200TDI fit in a RHD Defender by changing the exhaust down pipe. However the Disco engine will not fit in a LHD Defender unless you can figure out a way to move your steering linkage and then you will still have to make up a new exhaust down pipe. If you think about trying to change the manifolds, good luck there doesn't seem to be any available. Are you looking at the engine in Florida?

I'm looking to do the same conversion, so have been researching the options for quite awhile. Also it is possible to fit a 300TDI to an LT77 tranny. check www.nicksjungle.co.uk
__________________
Bike Mike
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old May 17th, 2004, 04:17 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
Top web site, good call. Maybe a defender 200 tdi turbo & manifold could be found in a breakers over here in GB.
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old May 17th, 2004, 05:08 PM
jaherring's Avatar
jaherring
Status: Offline
Jason Herring
94 D90 ST #1253
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Pedro, CA, USA
Posts: 582
I did look at that engine in Florida, among some others I've found.. they all seem to be Discovery 200 TDIs. Maybe I could locate a Defender manifold setup in the UK - I will be in Paris in two weeks & I could bring it back with me then (will the new security protocol let me carry on an intake manifold? )

The engine in FL needs an injection pump & injectors - I'm not sure that's inexpensive & I suppose I can't use the pump/injectors from the 2.5L n/a, can I?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old May 18th, 2004, 12:43 AM
whistler110's Avatar
whistler110
Status: Offline
Mike Johnstone
ex-mod 110
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pemberton, B.C., Canada
Posts: 184
I'm not positive about using other pumps, but I doubt it and yes they are expensive.

Good luck in finding a Defender manifold, from what I understand they are hard to come by. Let me know how it goes, if you find more than one I'd be interested.
__________________
Bike Mike
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old May 18th, 2004, 01:55 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
Injection pump
Expensive doesn't describe it.
When my injection pump let go and did this (see Photo)
to the inside of the front timing cover I was quoted 2000 yep 2000 for a new one or 500 for mine to be rebuilt. Now you can buy a whole 200tdi defender engine running with all associated hardware for around that sort of money in the UK.
If your engine hasn't got the injection pump or intercooler and ALL the associated hardware I'd walk away. It's not a good deal.
The seals leaked because water got into the fuel, the internals of the pump corroded. The hard facing was destroyed by the rusting and then the pump ate itself. The end result was a mixture of diesel and timing belt deposited round the timing case. I'd have spotted the trouble earlier if I hadn't left the wading plugs in for too long
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	engine front.jpg
Views:	313
Size:	200.7 KB
ID:	658  
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old May 18th, 2004, 01:59 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
That's 2000 for the pump - list price - by the way.
The black sludge was a right pain to remove but at least the cam belt didn't break
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	engine.jpg
Views:	274
Size:	191.7 KB
ID:	659  
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:43 PM
jaherring's Avatar
jaherring
Status: Offline
Jason Herring
94 D90 ST #1253
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Pedro, CA, USA
Posts: 582
Thanks for the info.. yikes on the price! It had better be gold plated for that cost.

Well unless the injection pump from the 2.5L n/a will fit on the 200tdi and the injectors are the same that kind of cost rules out the 200tdi in Florida....

This would all be easier if I could locate a Defender 200tdi...(in the US). I did find a complete 3.9L from a Defender with all ancilliaries for $2K, but that's gonig to be more work & I'll need a tranny. Plus, I was looking forward to the novelty of the TDI and the good mileage.

If I'm going to go V8 I'd want to go all out and drop in the 4.6L if that's possible... but either the 4.6L or the 2.8L PS were something I had wanted to consider a couple years down the road.

Is there any such thing as a good used 200tdi on the cheap which isn't from a Discovery?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old May 19th, 2004, 02:09 AM
whistler110's Avatar
whistler110
Status: Offline
Mike Johnstone
ex-mod 110
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pemberton, B.C., Canada
Posts: 184
Simply? NO!

They only built the Defender 200TDI for 4 years, and with the fact that you can put them into any preveious LR's they have become hard to find. Try www.landrover-salvage.co.uk. They always seem to have some in stock and the last time I talked to them a conversion kit was worth about 2000 pounds.
__________________
Bike Mike
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old May 19th, 2004, 05:54 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
Quote:
Originally posted by whistler110
Simply? NO!

They only built the Defender 200TDI for 4 years, and with the fact that you can put them into any preveious LR's they have become hard to find. Try www.landrover-salvage.co.uk. They always seem to have some in stock and the last time I talked to them a conversion kit was worth about 2000 pounds.
Yep. that's the going rate.
A 300tdi will bolt onto an LT77 gearbox one stud is different and I think you can leave it out or redrill the bell housing.

The injection pump from your N/A lump and the injectors won't fit on a 200tdi, even if they did the fueling would be way way out. It would have no mechanism for upping the fuel when the turbo cut in.
Part of the tdi's efficiency & power comes from it being a direct injection engine and it has very high injection pressures 20,000 psi springs to mind, the injectors are different too so you can't even use them. They are two stage high pressure things at around 100 each reconditioned exchange. Don't even ask about the new price. I had to be picked off the floor and revived several times during enquires over the rebuilding of my fuel injection system
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old May 19th, 2004, 08:01 PM
jaherring's Avatar
jaherring
Status: Offline
Jason Herring
94 D90 ST #1253
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Pedro, CA, USA
Posts: 582
OK, more shock. I'm getting a reality check here & this is definitely not as easy as I originally hoped! OK, forget the engine without the injector pump.

So, it sounds like if I could locate a Defender exhaust manifold a 200tdi from a Discovery would fit - right? The same turbo, some different plumbing to the intake (is the intake manifold the same? Please say yes!). The injector pump sounds like it has a differently located/shaped housing, but won't interfere with anything mounting in a LHD Defender (right?). The timing cover is also different, but with a low-profile electric fan (which works better anyway) I don't care about fan/shroud issues.

SO, that being said, maybe I could locate a manifold over in the UK since there are far more Defenders over there & a heck of alot more 200tdi engines.

Do you think that would work? If so, it seems like a "200tdi Disco->Def mounting kit" could be put together relatively easy.

Regarding the 300tdi, I don't know how easy that is to find in the US (certainly hard to find Defender models of it) & is the Discovery 300tdi going to have the same challenges the Disco 200 tdi has?

From what I understand, it locates some 7" farther back in the engine bay than per factory installation (in a Def or a Disco? Dunno, only repeating what I've learned here and elsewhere so far). Is it just the case of needing new engine mounts, or is a new/different crossmember required & then how extensive/custom would that be to fit?

The goal would be to keep the original LT77 5-spd in it's stock location.

Thanks for all the info - good discussion & I'm learning alot about this eccentric little truck!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old May 19th, 2004, 09:55 PM
whistler110's Avatar
whistler110
Status: Offline
Mike Johnstone
ex-mod 110
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pemberton, B.C., Canada
Posts: 184
Sorry, can't tell you for sure about the inlet manifold but my guess is that they are different as well. The parts program shows different #'s and the diagrams do not look similar at all.

I don't know how much luck you'll have finding a manifold in the UK, they seem to have a hard time finding them as well.

Theoretically, if you change the manifolds everything else should work though you would probably need to have the pump re-tuned as the two manifold systems produce different power outputs.

300 TDI's are more common in North America than 200TDI's. Try www.wildewestlandrovers.ab.ca he had some a month ago.

You should be able to keep the LT77 where it is.
__________________
Bike Mike
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old May 19th, 2004, 10:51 PM
jaherring's Avatar
jaherring
Status: Offline
Jason Herring
94 D90 ST #1253
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Pedro, CA, USA
Posts: 582
I just read the tech article at http://www.nicksjungle.co.uk on the 300tdi install - not too bad, but still a bit of fabrication work.

Regarding the 200tdi, even if the intake manifold is different on the Disco isn't that just a plumbing issue? Is it something that some custom ducting/tubing from the (Def-exhaust-manifold-mounted) turbo outlet to the (Disco) intake would solve, or does the Disco intake end up pushing into/against a Defender bulkhead/firewall or otherwise making this impossible?

I wish I had some nice pics of each engine installed in their respective engine bays to compare (or some nice 3-view and ISO diagrams).

Mike, you have some diagrams of both - does the intake inlet (throttle body mount) location differ substantially?

Aside from my dreams of an easy 200tdi install, the next question would be: does the 300tdi from the Disco have different fittings than the Defender, or are they interchangeable? If the Disco is the same I can probably hunt one down locally.

Somewhere I've read that the 300tdi was less reliable than the 200tdi as well. Any pros/cons between the two engines?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old May 20th, 2004, 02:29 AM
whistler110's Avatar
whistler110
Status: Offline
Mike Johnstone
ex-mod 110
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pemberton, B.C., Canada
Posts: 184
After looking at the parts diagrams, it looks like the two manifolds are reverse of each other. The Disco intake is above the exhaust while on the Def. the intake manifold is below the exhaust manifold.

The Disco & Def. 300 TDI's are the same engine. I'm not sure where you would hear that the 300 TDI's are less reliable, they had a timing belt cam issue with the early engines that caused them to prematurely eat belts but LR issued a repair kit for that.

The 200 TDI is more economical while the 300 TDI is more refined.
__________________
Bike Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Tags
200tdi, disco, tdi

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Disco 200Tdi Alternator P/N? newfD90 Defender Technical Discussions 8 January 29th, 2012 07:29 PM
200tdi air filter mounting bracket (defender) dave_lucas Wanted 2 December 4th, 2009 08:26 PM
Defender 200tdi wastegate / boost tee location dave_lucas Defender Technical Discussions 9 November 18th, 2009 04:18 PM
Defender transmission for 200tdi mattm Wanted 7 October 9th, 2009 10:30 AM
1991 RHD - Defender 90 Station Wagon - 200tdi AUTO - CDN$18,000 globallandrovers The Vendors Loft 0 March 4th, 2009 08:39 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:10 AM.


Copyright