D90 Stalling Problem - Ghost in Machine, Please help - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old October 7th, 2013, 04:15 PM
austexrover
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Chris
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D90 Stalling Problem - Ghost in Machine, Please help

Iím looking for a little help in getting to the bottom of a stall problem Iíve been with my 1994 D90. Itís spent the last 2 months in first an independent mechanicís shop, then the LR dealers shop Ė and at this point there seems to be a ghost in the machine neither can find. ANY thoughts or suggestions on where to look would be greatly appreciated. The dealer is about ready to give up, Iíve spent thousands trying to fix it, and Iím starting to get pretty concerned we may not be able to get to the bottom of it. My apologies for the following novel, I love this car so much and wanted to provide as much detail as possible as Iím honestly starting to get a little hopeless.

Symptoms:
When I start the car, the transmission (manual) revs to around 1,000 RPM, then ever so slightly the engine begins to sputter. RPMís gradually drop until the car stalls out, normally quickly - within about 5 seconds of the start. I can normally (but not always) get it restarted right away. Sometimes it stops stalling and runs well the rest of the day. Other times the only way I can keep it running is to give it extra throttle and not let the RPMís drop by continuing to give it gas, keeping RPMís 1,000+ even when at a full stop.

Other notes:
*When this occurs itís almost always first thing in the morning, when itís particularly humid (where I live), and the car was parked outside all night.

*It does not always stall; sometimes days will go by with no problems, but it will always come back.

*The very first time this happened, I drove over a large pothole around 40 MPH that shook the car pretty hard. It started making a loud billowing noise from the rear, and I pulled over as I thought I had gotten a flat tire. Turns out the noise was coming from the exhaust. It almost sounded like it was sucking air if that makes any sense.

*There seems to be some relation to the electrical system. One morning recently, it stalled when I first started it for the day. I restarted it, and then kept going on down the road. When I flipped on my headlights, it quickly started stalling even thought I was in 2nd gear, in a high RPM range. I turned them back off and it lined out and didnít stall again.

Repairs already completed:
The independent & dealer both thought this was transmission related. Master & slave cylinders have been replaced, as well as the clutch, and clutch box. That system is basically new at this point and the problem is still there.

I feel like this could be an electrical issue, or fuel injection related, but again the dealer canít find anything else.

Please help, any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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  #2  
Old October 7th, 2013, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austexrover View Post
Repairs already completed:
The independent & dealer both thought this was transmission related. Master & slave cylinders have been replaced, as well as the clutch, and clutch box. That system is basically new at this point and the problem is still there.
This happens in neutral (as well as when in gear) and all that has been replaced so far have been transmission-related components for thousands of dollars?

Yikes. Start cheap, then go with the more expensive stuff.

Have they checked the connection(s) at your ignition coil?
Have they checked for spark? How strong is it?
How old is your distributor? Cap? If the car is running and you spray some water around the engine bay (one spot at a time) does it die when you're spraying anything specifically?
Had anything been messed with/replaced directly prior to these symptoms?
Is your truck throwing any codes?
Have they looked at your exhaust?
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  #3  
Old October 7th, 2013, 04:58 PM
austexrover
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thanks for your thoughts rijosho! Yes it happens in both neutral & in gear. The transmission-related repairs we're all necessary due to other issues not mentioned that have now been fixed. Unfortunately it hasn't helped with the stall issue.

I will check with the dealer and reply on ignition coil connections, sparks, & dist cap as I don't know the answers (just purchased 8 months ago and am still going through it).

Nothing was replaced prior to the symptoms. The only other special event that comes to mind is that I had taken it on its first meaningful off-road trip since purchasing it right before this problem came up. There we're trails, some wading (up to door sills), and some mud. It did get pretty wet inside and out, which definitely could have contributed to some electrical issues...

Codes... I quote the dealer on this one "it had so many error codes we had to reset it." They explained it had been so long since checked/cleared that there were so many there they had no idea where to start. The truck was previously owned in a small mountain town and serviced at a small shop that likely didn't have the code equipment.

An 02 sensor was out on the exhaust (caused check engine) but was replaced. Dealer said the cats are starting to crumble a bit and would like to replace the y-pipe, but conceded this probably wasn't causing this problem.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 05:54 PM
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Have you changed the IACV?

Its a very common cause of stalling issues. they cost $40 from autozone.

Ghost issue could be a result of a poor ground strap .... if you can run rover gauge look at the voltage when this is happening ... given the variance of your issues I would suspect a varying voltage is causing the sensors to read all over the place.
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  #5  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Have you changed the IACV? Its a very common cause of stalling issues. they cost $40 from autozone. Ghost issue could be a result of a poor ground strap .... if you can run rover gauge look at the voltage when this is happening ... given the variance of your issues I would suspect a varying voltage is causing the sensors to read all over the place.
IMHO

Most Likely this is the problem.

I'm on my 3rd..😍

Purchased at Pep Boys around $40

Stepper motor
BWD Idle Air Control Valve
Part # 21738 SKU:8343345

May need to be " adjusted" according to my mechanic... Gordon at Inland Rovers (CA) charges me $100 for the "adjustment".

Good luck
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  #6  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Codes... I quote the dealer on this one "it had so many error codes we had to reset it." They explained it had been so long since checked/cleared that there were so many there they had no idea where to start. The truck was previously owned in a small mountain town and serviced at a small shop that likely didn't have the code equipment.
This is a '94. If there were any codes, your check engine light would be on. Was that the case? If the light wasn't on, there weren't any codes thrown. Assuming this is the original engine, it doesn't take any special equipment to read fault codes in the computer. It is a very rudimentary system (which is both a blessing and a curse) and is pre OBD-II.

This has the original engine and hasn't been swapped out for a 4.0 w/ a GEMS system, correct?

In my opinion it would be idle air control valve, bad ground in the ignition somewhere (seems likely due to the issue manifesting itself when the lights were switched on), fuel pressure (perhaps a clogged filter), or vacuum leak. Probably in that order.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 06:56 PM
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Under no circunstance shoukd yiu allow the dealership to replacyour ypipe
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Old October 7th, 2013, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overland90 View Post

May need to be " adjusted" according to my mechanic... Gordon at Inland Rovers (CA) charges me $100 for the "adjustment".
... there is nothing to adjust on an IACV. The ECU earns where they are positioned on every engine start. Please send me $100 because seemingly you are happy to pay money for nothing ...
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  #9  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:58 PM
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Check the PCV hoses and connections they may have crumbled on your if they have never been replaced they will choke the engine, same goes for the flame trap on top of the valve cover. If you dont clean that or replace it every so often your engine will choke itself to stalling out. Also make sure to take some qtips and cleaner and clean out the little orfice on the throttle body that the PCV tube goes into. The cats are starting to give then go ahead and replace them. They too can cause issues with the engine stalling out and etc.
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  #10  
Old October 7th, 2013, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
... there is nothing to adjust on an IACV. The ECU earns where they are positioned on every engine start. Please send me $100 because seemingly you are happy to pay money for nothing ...
I'll share your thoughts with Gordon.
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  #11  
Old October 7th, 2013, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by airbornrover View Post
The cats are starting to give then go ahead and replace them. They too can cause issues with the engine stalling out and etc.
That's certainly the case, but there are plenty of other small, cheap items that are far more likely to be causing this specific issue.

The shop he's using is clearly unfamiliar with the 14cux system and its basic debugging. And they're already sucking plenty of money out of him needlessly. I wouldn't recommend he start replacing any more expensive items.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Overland90 View Post
I'll share your thoughts with Gordon.
Please do ... I'd love to know what he's doing for $100 ... because it isn't adjusting an IACV.
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  #13  
Old October 7th, 2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post
Under no circunstance shoukd yiu allow the dealership to replacyour ypipe
x10. Not only may it not be necessary, but the part alone will be priced many times higher than you can get elsewhere by searching around a bit.
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  #14  
Old October 7th, 2013, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellulararrest View Post
This is a '94. If there were any codes, your check engine light would be on. Was that the case? If the light wasn't on, there weren't any codes thrown. Assuming this is the original engine, it doesn't take any special equipment to read fault codes in the computer. It is a very rudimentary system (which is both a blessing and a curse) and is pre OBD-II.
Not necessarily true. IF someone cut the wire from the fuel injection ECU to the check engine light bulb, it will come on with the bulb check and not when there is a fault code. I've run into this before.

------ Follow up post added October 7th, 2013 07:59 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
... there is nothing to adjust on an IACV. The ECU earns where they are positioned on every engine start. Please send me $100 because seemingly you are happy to pay money for nothing ...
You adjust the number of steps using the allen key on the top of the plenum. It should be done when replacing a stepper motor. You also need some form of diagnostic computer to see the number of steps.

------ Follow up post added October 7th, 2013 08:02 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by austexrover View Post
Codes... I quote the dealer on this one "it had so many error codes we had to reset it." They explained it had been so long since checked/cleared that there were so many there they had no idea where to start. The truck was previously owned in a small mountain town and serviced at a small shop that likely didn't have the code equipment.
In my experience, if there are a bunch of "Invalid Faults" it usually needs a fuel injection ECU. I've seen a bunch of these with corrosion in them, and they can set some strange faults.

I'd also look at the reading for the coolant temperature. A lot of times these can fail and cause the engine to run at full rich because the fuel injection ECU thinks that the coolant temperature is way lower than it actually is (-180F for example).
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Old October 7th, 2013, 08:26 PM
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SO many questions to ask here, how many miles on the truck? How many owners? Did you just buy the truck? Are you a cheap fuck thats uses Costco regular, Pennzoil oil l and Fram filters?

Your dealership sucks it craves warranty work on LR3's and throwing head gaskets in DII's. Id just as well send my truck to Will or Joel before Id take it to the dealer.

The "new" ignition parts are a red flag... How are all the vacuum hoses? How are your battery connections?

Lots of little things to address, plenty of threads on this topic. I am sure my name is at the top of some.

The only advice I have is to find a new mechanic and keep reading the D-90.com. In the interim pour a can of seafoam in the fuel tank, clean the throttle body and stepper and drive it.

Good luck with the Rover and let us know what fixes your issue!
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Old October 7th, 2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post

Your dealership sucks it craves warranty work on LR3's and throwing head gaskets in DII's. Id just as well send my truck to Will or Joel before Id take it to the dealer.

The only advice I have is to find a new mechanic and keep reading the D-90.com. In the interim pour a can of seafoam in the fuel tank, clean the throttle body and stepper and drive it.
No one wants to do any warranty work, no one makes any real money on it.

Has anyone ever actually fixed anything with Seafoam?
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Old October 7th, 2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
You adjust the number of steps using the allen key on the top of the plenum. It should be done when replacing a stepper motor. You also need some form of diagnostic computer to see the number of steps.
.
I think you are confusing the Defender 14 CUX setup with some other vehicle.

There is no adjustment required ... the ECU handles it all. No computer required.

When you shutdown / startup the engine the ECU positions the IACV valve fully open. It does this by sending something like 200 pulses to a device that has a maximum movement of 100. This ensures it's in the right position for starting. When the engine fires the ECU then sends pulses to move the IACV to control the idle ... it's an immediate feedback loop where the ECU 'learns' where to put the IACV by increasing or decreasing the number of pulses.

http://www.conehead.org/Projects/Lan..._injection.pdf
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Old October 7th, 2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
No one wants to do any warranty work, no one makes any real money on it.

Has anyone ever actually fixed anything with Seafoam?
probably the people charging for IACV adjustments.
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  #19  
Old October 7th, 2013, 08:56 PM
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Seafoam helped the RRC in my driveway that has been sitting with a dead battery for months. Not sure if it was the ethanol from shit fuel or water in the fuel.

Ive used it periodically with marginal results. The OP hasnt posted much background on the truck, a seafoam treatment goes along way in some cases. Any schmuck can dump seafoam in the fuel tank.

Dont get me started on Marvel Mystery
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Old October 7th, 2013, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I think you are confusing the Defender 14 CUX setup with some other vehicle.

There is no adjustment required ... the ECU handles it all. No computer required.
Typically you set the base idle after installing a stepper motor.
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