D1 axles in older D90 - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old April 18th, 2013, 02:50 PM
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D1 axles in older D90

So I bought a pair of axles out of a 1999 D1 so that I can get rear disc brakes and hopefully 24 spline axles and diffs. I had them throw in all of the arms and everything else that is bolted to them because I've read that SOME early coil spring stuff doesn't have the same size radius arms or whatever.

So the questions I have are.... my old non-abs swivels look pretty decent, and it appears that the non-abs stuff is slightly less complicated. Can I swap the non-abs swivels, but keep the 24 spline axles, hubs, cvs, etc? (mainly so that I can run alloy wheels easier, if I wanted to)

Also, it looks like I've got 4 springs and shocks still bolted to the "new" stuff. At some point I might get a lift for the 90, but for the time being, can I use the disco parts? Are they likely to be the correct spring rate or whatever so that it doesn't sit too high or too low at one end or the other? I know I could use the D90 stuff I've got, but the Disco stuff is newer, still bolted on, and hasn't had all of the paint sand-blasted off from being in the desert for 25 years.
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  #2  
Old April 18th, 2013, 03:03 PM
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No on the swaps as described. You can use the brakes, though. Just pipe up for single line instead of dual.

Just keep in mind that what you have installed is not stronger than what you removed. It may be easier to upgrade though, especially in the States.

The radius arms will not articulate nearly as well.

The springs would make you sit lower. Stock 90s are lifted compared to Discos.
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  #3  
Old April 18th, 2013, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
No on the swaps as described. You can use the brakes, though. Just pipe up for single line instead of dual.
Yeah, I figured I'd just re-used the T piece from my current rear axle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Just keep in mind that what you have installed is not stronger than what you removed. It may be easier to upgrade though, especially in the States..
Oh. I thought the 24 spline stuff was supposed to be stronger. But yeah, the goal would eventually be upgraded stuff like ashcroft, which requires 24 spline.

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Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
The radius arms will not articulate nearly as well.
I haven't had a chance to compare yet. What is different between the 90 and d1 arms that causes this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post

The springs would make you sit lower. Stock 90s are lifted compared to Discos.
Alright, I'll keep the 90 stuff for now.


Thanks!

------ Follow up post added April 18th, 2013 02:13 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
There is no advantage to swapping swivels, unless the disco's are pitted. Do your swivel balls mount to the housing with 6 or 7 bolts? The later (all NAS coilers 87 on up) have 7 bolts.

-Jeff
I'm pretty sure they are 7 bolt. The disco stuff doesn't look pitted from quick glance, so I'll just use it as is (well.... I'll probably swap the defender front brakes over.) I was just hoping to do away with the very-slightly more complicated swivel pin setup on ABS.
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  #4  
Old April 18th, 2013, 03:19 PM
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Oh. I thought the 24 spline stuff was supposed to be stronger. But yeah, the goal would eventually be upgraded stuff like ashcroft, which requires 24 spline.
The shafts used in the Discos are wasted to the same diameter as the 10 spline, so end up being the same strength. The 24 spline diff is not much use either as they break on street driven trucks. The front axle is actually weaker as the inner shaft going into the CV joint is much smaller than 10 spline.

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Originally Posted by jafir View Post
I haven't had a chance to compare yet. What is different between the 90 and d1 arms that causes this?
They use a wider, 3 shell bushing and is does not compress nearly as much as the older narrow ones, probably cutting the articulation in half. I think you can get a 2 shell, wide bushing that fits and improves the situation.

The hub bearing spacing is also narrower, which is not the greatest thing, but does not seem to bother too many people.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
The D90 calipers are bigger/better, so that is a good call. Be aware that you might need to slightly bore the caliper mounting holes to fit the metric bolts from the D1 housing.
Is this true, even on early 90s?
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  #6  
Old April 18th, 2013, 03:39 PM
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Is this true, even on early 90s?
I don't have the vented discs of later defenders, but I think the calipers are still upgraded over disco stuff.
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  #7  
Old April 18th, 2013, 03:45 PM
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my 85 LR90 had the same size calipers as my 96D1 (small), since upgraded to 110's

As I needed to change my front axle tube (they do rust out) I just swaped everything from old tube to new, ball holes the same
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  #8  
Old April 18th, 2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
The 24 spline diff is not much use either as they break on street driven trucks.
This is a ridiculous statement. Or they never break with 33" tires on a trail with spinning tires depending on who you ask. This statement is purely opinion and should not be given in a way that makes it seem as if it's an absolute fact and diffs are breaking constantly on the street.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roverman2010 View Post
my 85 LR90 had the same size calipers as my 96D1 (small), since upgraded to 110's

As I needed to change my front axle tube (they do rust out) I just swaped everything from old tube to new, ball holes the same
Oh. Well maybe I'll leave the front axle out for now. I'm mainly concerned about rear disc. It's silly and irrational, but I just HATE working on drum brakes.

On second thought I'll swap the front too, but just so that if I break a diff, it's the same front an rear.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 04:00 PM
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If you are careful you can just bend the rear brake pipes to fit to the calipers
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  #11  
Old April 18th, 2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
This is a ridiculous statement. Or they never break with 33" tires on a trail with spinning tires depending on who you ask. This statement is purely opinion and should not be given in a way that makes it seem as if it's an absolute fact and diffs are breaking constantly on the street.
No, this is not opinion. This is my experience. I've seen three broken rear 24 spline diffs in trucks that have not been off road. The cross pin breaks.

My point is there is not much to be gained with these Disco axles from a strength perspective as both the diffs and shafts need to be upgraded.
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  #12  
Old April 18th, 2013, 04:38 PM
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Well for this weekend it's going to be left stock. It'a on my friend's trailer and we are headed to SCARR. I would drive it, but at 55 mph (and much less on hills) it might take all weekend to get there.



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  #13  
Old April 18th, 2013, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jafir View Post
Well for this weekend it's going to be left stock. It'a on my friend's trailer and we are headed to SCARR. I would drive it, but at 55 mph (and much less on hills) it might take all weekend to get there.



Attachment 70333
Jafir: It doesn't take longer. You just have to leave earlier (!)
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Old April 18th, 2013, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
No, this is not opinion. This is my experience. I've seen three broken rear 24 spline diffs in trucks that have not been off road. The cross pin breaks.

My point is there is not much to be gained with these Disco axles from a strength perspective as both the diffs and shafts need to be upgraded.
You don't have a good grasp on language do you? There are also opinions based on experience that you can wheel on 33" tires all day on stock Disco diffs and axles. I guess because I never broke a diff wheeling or on road with 33" tires on my Disco that we now have two facts that do not agree.

You are saying that if he swaps in 24 spline Disco diffs he will explode a diff on the street and therefore must not make this swap. They do not need to be upgrade based on my experience. They do based on yours. Therefore that is an opinion and should be given as such instead of acting as if you are a subject matter expert and speak 100% truth at all times without fault or any possible alternative.

------ Follow up post added April 18th, 2013 05:02 PM ------

If you want to run alloy wheels without spending any more money and doing all the work yourself then the Disco axles are probably the most effective way to do so without having spacers on there. Some prefer the older tech versus the newer axles but if you stick to a reasonable sized tire then you should have no problem with the setup. It will be a lot easier to find replacements and you can easily scoop up random good deals on lockers and HD axles as time goes on.
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  #15  
Old April 18th, 2013, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post

You are saying that if he swaps in 24 spline Disco diffs he will explode a diff on the street and therefore must not make this swap. They do not need to be upgrade based on my experience. They do based on yours. Therefore that is an opinion and should be given as such instead of acting as if you are a subject matter expert and speak 100% truth at all times without fault or any possible alternative.
I think you might be missing the point. He was saying that the switch to the 24 spline does not solve a primary weak link in the chain....the single cross pin diff. Therefore nothing has been gained. That's a pretty fair statement, and quite accurate. The standard single pin diff is a festering pile of feces and certainly does fail far more regularily than a diff should. I guess you can call that opinion, or whatever you like, but in the end it does not make it less true.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post

If you want to run alloy wheels without spending any more money and doing all the work yourself then the Disco axles are probably the most effective way to do so without having spacers on there. Some prefer the older tech versus the newer axles but if you stick to a reasonable sized tire then you should have no problem with the setup. It will be a lot easier to find replacements and you can easily scoop up random good deals on lockers and HD axles as time goes on.
Yeah. The rear disc is the biggest thing followed by alloys, maybe. I like the steel wheels, and I LOVE the XZLs, but not the prices. So I might get some disco alloys for cheap with some cheaper tires. Also the 255/85r16 KM2s on my D2 would probably fit on 7" wide d1 alloys just fine, if I decide to sell the d2.

------ Follow up post added April 18th, 2013 05:26 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by CamelTM View Post

I think you might be missing the point. He was saying that the switch to the 24 spline does not solve a primary weak link in the chain....the single cross pin diff. Therefore nothing has been gained. That's a pretty fair statement, and quite accurate. The standard single pin diff is a festering pile of feces and certainly does fail far more regularily than a diff should. I guess you can call that opinion, or whatever you like, but in the end it does not make it less true.
I do understand the possible weaknesses of the stock rover diff, but I appreciate the reminder. I figure a 24 spline stock diff will be easier to find than a 10 spline, so if I do break one I'll be better off. And if or when I upgrade I'll need 24 spline stuff anyway I assume.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CamelTM View Post
I think you might be missing the point. He was saying that the switch to the 24 spline does not solve a primary weak link in the chain....the single cross pin diff. Therefore nothing has been gained. That's a pretty fair statement, and quite accurate. The standard single pin diff is a festering pile of feces and certainly does fail far more regularily than a diff should. I guess you can call that opinion, or whatever you like, but in the end it does not make it less true.
Sure. Packaging a statement along the lines of these diffs are constantly exploding on the road is not a fact. I must have missed the point in time where LR did a massive recall on all of their diffs because they were all exploding on the road... constantly... under normal expected use...

You are both missing the point that the guy just wants newer parts and to run alloy wheels. He even stated he would ultimately upgrade to an Ashcrofts which makes even more sense to go on to the 24 splines instead of being told don't change out your parts because they are weaker. It's not going to make any real difference in the interim if he swaps his 24 spline Disco parts for his old parts.
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  #18  
Old April 18th, 2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CamelTM View Post
I think you might be missing the point. He was saying that the switch to the 24 spline does not solve a primary weak link in the chain....the single cross pin diff.
Yes, and the halfshafts are the same strength.

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co...0halfshaft.JPG

I was quite clear that there are some good reasons to do it. However if your main reasoning is more strength, you are not getting it. In my own experience with failures on these axles, the halfshafts and diffs are around the same strength and fail about as regularly. If you want more strength, you need to replace both the diff and the shafts whether you have a 24 spline Disco axle or a 10 spline Defender axle.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 06:41 PM
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Sure. Packaging a statement along the lines of these diffs are constantly exploding on the road is not a fact..
That is not what I said. I clarified my meaning more than adequately. You need to sit down and relax a bit. This is not Discoweb.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 06:45 PM
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That is not what I said. I clarified my meaning more than adequately. You need to sit down and relax a bit. This is not Discoweb.
Good job resorting to telling me to sit down and relax. Very effective way to manage an disagreement. We are saying the same thing but you should avoid telling people that 24 spline Disco diffs are exploding on the street like it's a regular occurrence.
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