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  #101  
Old October 14th, 2016, 12:34 AM
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I've spent varying amounts of time in several factories like this one (Lockheed at Marietta, Boeing at Long Beach, Porsche at Stuttgart, Volvo in Gothenburg, MINI in Oxford, BMW in Munich) studying process improvement and lean logistics, and this video is pretty impressive. It's not at all what I was expecting.
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  #102  
Old October 17th, 2016, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LR Max View Post
They had one at Expo this past weekend. A 2000 Jeep TJ with the ISF 2.8 in it, so they were bolting up to a NV3550 (which is actually a pretty darn good transmission, I just wish the jeep 6 speed was worth a darn, they are dying left and right behind the jeep 3.8s).

Redline on this engine for on-road is somewhere in the 4k RPM range. He said that with the stock drivetrain (hinted that the gears might be 3.73 in the diffs, and stock tires, so I believe it was pulling some high RPMs) it wasn't too bad. But then again, his version of "bad" could be different from mine. The new common rail engines ARE quieter than the old mechanically injected engines...by A LOT. So that helps. I did not hear him run it, but I should have asked him.

It is an electronic engine. And as everyone recoils in disgust, it actually makes it A LOT better. As for the extras, they are making full wiring harnesses and including everything that is needed to fit the engine. So despite it being a new engine, it would plug directly into the jeep, no problem. There a few oil pan options as well, so that helps. It is fly by wire, but they will be supplying a foot pedal. I looked at it, looks like a bolt in, and probably the same as the ford off-the-shelf fly by wire pedal...that ford uses...in everything.

It is a crossflow engine, but they are running an intercooler, so that doesn't really matter.

Numbers were impressive. Something like ~260 ft.lbs and like, 160hp. Plenty for a lightweight application such as jeeps and our rovers.

Overall, this engine with the NV3500/3550 transmission (I know it isn't the loved 4500, but it'll be fine, cheaper, and lighter), and an Orion transfer case would be pretty much the awesome in a rover.

On MPG, with the TJ, NV3550, stock transfer case (so, 1:1 high range), 3.73 gears, stock tires (which I think are basically 29" or 30" tall tires), the worst he got was 24, hauling @$$ over the rockies. Best he got was 34 mpg. But average, he got like, 30.

So we won't hear about this kit directly from Cummins (that isn't their style). But they are working with re-packagers. That is their style (I get it). So some other company will sell the engine with the needed harnesses, ECMs, pedals, piping, etc.

Price wise, he said go only the chevy website and see what a LS sells for. And this would be less. Well, an LS is somewhere between $7k and $14k. So I suspect the price for a high volume conversion kit (aka, jeep) will be in the $10~12k neighborhood.

Currently the engine only has Euro 3 and Euro 4 rating. So I can only assume they are going to get whatever equivalent for US. So the regulations (excluding Cali) is that you can replace with current tier...or newer. So you can put a 2015 engine into a 2000 (or whatever). You just can't put an older engine into a newer truck (I saw a guy put a 93 DT466 into a 2003 Ford, that is bad...).

As for the 2.8, there is an engine population growing out there as they do have a Tier 4 Final off-highway version (aka, construction equipment). So while the computer programming is different, for the most part, the hardware is the same. So Cummins shops all over the US can receive this engine into their bays and know WTF they are dealing with. That is a benefit. And also Cummins is used to seeing engines in all kinda crap. So when it shows up in something new, they are used to it.

Same story with the 3.8. For on road, the HP will be about the same, but will have more torque. It will be a physically bigger engine, but could be worth it for those carrying a bunch of crap and/or towing. The 3.8 will be smaller than the 4BT/4.5 engines. I like the 2.8 because it is small, and has all the power one needs. Fitting this engine to an old 4 cyl TJ makes a ton of sense. To a 6 cyl...maybe. This engine has ~40 more ft.lbs of torque, but less HP. That said, it blows a TDI 300 out of the water and gives a rover 4.0 a run for its money. It is a bit wide but if you are pulling a V8, then there is plenty of room.

A very belated THANK YOU ! for this post
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  #103  
Old October 17th, 2016, 10:08 AM
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This look like a cool setup.
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  #104  
Old October 23rd, 2016, 08:53 PM
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Don't know whether Cummins retained the same bolt pattern etc, but these Cummins to NV gearbox adapters may prove useful. Home Page
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  #105  
Old October 24th, 2016, 08:19 PM
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Very impressive. I would really like to see the 2.8 in a Defender, especially if it gets a 50 state legal stamp. This could open up a whole new market for California vehicles and be a good alternative to the v6/v8 American gas swaps. The Jeep market is probably 100 times larger the rover market unfortunately.

Diesel - check
Decent performance - check
light weight - check
part availability - check
Local mechanic knowledge - check
Legal swap - check
Reasonable value - check (hopefully)

You can't fault Cummins for outsourcing the production with the a American labor unions hobbling the industry here. Shipping to a port isn't as expensive as you may think. We are have a bunch of roof top tents/awnings coming over costing less than $100 per tent to get across the Pacific.
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  #106  
Old October 24th, 2016, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spikemd View Post
Very impressive. I would really like to see the 2.8 in a Defender, especially if it gets a 50 state legal stamp. This could open up a whole new market for California vehicles and be a good alternative to the v6/v8 American gas swaps. The Jeep market is probably 100 times larger the rover market unfortunately.

Diesel - check
Decent performance - check
light weight - check
part availability - check
Local mechanic knowledge - check
Legal swap - check
Reasonable value - check (hopefully)

You can't fault Cummins for outsourcing the production with the a American labor unions hobbling the industry here. Shipping to a port isn't as expensive as you may think. We are have a bunch of roof top tents/awnings coming over costing less than $100 per tent to get across the Pacific.
While you are already able to buy these engines outside the US and ship them in via alibaba and other mechanisms the value in these engines will be largely in the warranty, registration with Cummins etc so they can notify owners of available software updates etc. I dont think you get the warranty with the cheaper engines bought outside the US. The engines will be available through your local Cummins dealer/service center or through Summit Racing, Jegs etc.
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  #107  
Old October 24th, 2016, 11:44 PM
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Not sure where you get " light weight - check" from, just that it is "less weight" then compared to the 6BT, but this cast iron 4 is not light. And it is quite tall. Very tall, actually.

I've spent a lot of time looking at this engine (and still am). Just not an "easy swap" when you get down to brass tacks. You will need the engine, a new transmission, a different transfer case (you will want the 1:1.003), an adapter plate, different axles on all corners, probably different axle tubes altogether, (such as Salisbury or Dana 60), new drive shafts front and rear, new front suspension, ECU wiring to name the start. At that point, I am just going to get a chassis, weld in the mounts and galvanize the entire thing and start from there...

Was going to convert the 90, but added up the numbers. Now I am jonesing to build a 110 from scratch... My wife's comment? "Where?". I have no room....





but it wasn't a NO! :-) Woooo HOOOOOO.... that is how the 90 started :-)


And if I start from scratch, it will be the 6BT.... things keep growing...
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  #108  
Old October 25th, 2016, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis View Post
Not sure where you get " light weight - check" from, just that it is "less weight" then compared to the 6BT, but this cast iron 4 is not light. And it is quite tall. Very tall, actually.

I've spent a lot of time looking at this engine (and still am). Just not an "easy swap" when you get down to brass tacks. You will need the engine, a new transmission, a different transfer case (you will want the 1:1.003), an adapter plate, different axles on all corners, probably different axle tubes altogether, (such as Salisbury or Dana 60), new drive shafts front and rear, new front suspension, ECU wiring to name the start.
214 kg. No heavier than a Rover TDI. The NV3550 adapters exist to the engine and the LT230. NV3550s are cheap, even brand new. A regular 1.2 will be fine. The powerband is no different than a Rover TDI and specs are nearly the same as a 2.8. The ECU wiring will come with the kit. Just a few wires to hook to the truck. No need for different suspension or axles. Maximum torque is not that high.
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  #109  
Old October 25th, 2016, 09:06 AM
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Fyi you'll need the oem side 50+pin connector and wire from there ...we can all have a pissing match on what will work and what won't there's only way to find out. Sharing information is a good thing it will help us get to our goals .. i'm in the middle of specing out the trans adapter for my 3.8 isf

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  #110  
Old October 25th, 2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
214 kg. No heavier than a Rover TDI. The NV3550 adapters exist to the engine and the LT230. NV3550s are cheap, even brand new. A regular 1.2 will be fine. The powerband is no different than a Rover TDI and specs are nearly the same as a 2.8. The ECU wiring will come with the kit. Just a few wires to hook to the truck. No need for different suspension or axles. Maximum torque is not that high.
I've been researching the 3.9 4bt-- so my mistake as this was clearly the 2.8. I couldn't see going through a diesel conversion for my 90 with the off-road trailer for ~200 ft-lbs of the 2.8 without taking the option to go to the fuel remapping for more torque in which case I still say it all holds if done right (except the weight and potentially axle housings but definitely the axles and cv's). this thread has jumped all over starting with the 6BT-- I got sidetracked.
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  #111  
Old October 25th, 2016, 09:40 AM
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3.9 bt is a different engine than the new ISF...common rail rear geartrain ..3.8 and 2.8 isf only i posted the cummins brochure a few threads back

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  #112  
Old October 25th, 2016, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis View Post
I've been researching the 3.9 4bt-- so my mistake as this was clearly the 2.8. I couldn't see going through a diesel conversion for my 90 with the off-road trailer for ~200 ft-lbs of the 2.8 without taking the option to go to the fuel remapping for more torque in which case I still say it all holds if done right (except the weight and potentially axle housings but definitely the axles and cv's). this thread has jumped all over starting with the 6BT-- I got sidetracked.
Stock mapping is 163 hp @ 3600 rpm and 266 lb-ft @1800 rpm for the 2.8 ISF. Those are nice numbers and inline with the 2.8 international engine, just more torque in the top end. This should not be a problem with a normal set of built Rover axles. The NV3550 should fit in the space of an R380 (2" shorter than a long bellhousing R380) and with a 4:1 1st and 0.78:1 5th will have a good gearing range. On the face of it, clearance issues look okay, but it would need someone to measure. As long as things clear, it should be a pretty straightforward swap.

If you want to do the 6BT, get on the Cummins FB group. There are a ton of guys doing it every day and they are building all of the conversion parts in decent quantities.
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  #113  
Old October 25th, 2016, 11:56 AM
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See around 5 minutes for the NV3550 adapter.

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  #114  
Old October 28th, 2016, 09:41 PM
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Cummins advert in the new Overland Journal
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  #115  
Old October 28th, 2016, 10:17 PM
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I took the survey.
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  #116  
Old November 1st, 2016, 05:20 PM
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Sema announcement http://social.cummins.com/introducin...mmins-repower/
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  #117  
Old November 1st, 2016, 05:37 PM
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Heading there tomorrow! Will snap a pic or two
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  #118  
Old November 1st, 2016, 05:58 PM
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The dealer and parts support makes it almost worth pulling the HS2.8 out.
The only thing I'm not enthusiastic about is the electronics though Cummins does have a history of proven reliability.
The only real downside to the HS2.8 is the lack of parts and dealer support.
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  #119  
Old November 1st, 2016, 06:33 PM
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The dealer and parts support makes it almost worth pulling the HS2.8 out. The only thing I'm not enthusiastic about is the electronics though Cummins does have a history of proven reliability. The only real downside to the HS2.8 is the lack of parts and dealer support.
I'm on the fence. I have less thank 1000 miles on my TGV. Wish they would've released this a few years ago.
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  #120  
Old November 1st, 2016, 06:43 PM
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Have they announced the price? If not, when?

Now the race is on. Who will be the first Defender Source member to get one of these 50 State Cummins installed and on the road?

Mike & Carrie
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