Crank/flywheel shimming, GM. - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 11:13 PM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
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Crank/flywheel shimming, GM.

Hey guys.
I need to shim my flywheel on my GM 4.3l v6 by about 5mm in order to get proper flywheel alignment with the starter and to get correct spacing with the torque converter.
I'm using marks 4wd kit which includes a flywheel alignment spigot to mate it to a zf4hp22. The flywheel alignment spigot has a pilot that fits into the GM crank by about 11mm. If I space out the flywheel as required that will only leave me about 6mm of engagement with the crank.

Does anyone care to speculate if that 6mm will be sufficient or am I in trouble here?
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  #2  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 12:47 AM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
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1. Can you really shim the starter Forward that far?
2. I also needed to move the whole assembly towards the transmission that far to mate correctly to the torque converter
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  #3  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 01:24 AM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
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I didn't have great luck getting answers out of marks. . Had to get all the info myself either via Google or trial and error.
I couldn't even get part numbers for the flexplate/torque converter parts needed for their kit
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  #4  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 06:52 AM
ezzzzzzz
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Mark Garrenton
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If I'm understanding you, the starter bendix gear will overshoot the ring gear and grind. There are short nose starters for the later GM engines (which you may already have) but that doesn't fix the gap for the torque converter. What year V6 are you using? Is the flywheel on backwards? The balance weight attached to the flywheel faces the engine. There is an offset in all of the V6/V8 flywheels I've dealt with. For what it's worth the 6mm engagement (just shy of .25") is probably okay. The torque converter isn't going anywhere once it's bolted up but a new one can easily be machined to suit. Also, there must be float between the torque converter and transmission of approximately 1/8" as I recall. If there isn't any you can't push the flywheel back. So many questions. Got pictures of the kit pieces?
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  #5  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 12:05 PM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
1967 series 2a 109 NADA
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thanks for the info, you are correct, the bendix gear was overshooting the ringgear slightly on the leading edge. Pretty sure the flywheel was the right way on as the other way the bendix gear fell quite a bit short of the ring gear. I can post pics of all the pieces, there is a fair bit of factors that goes in to all this so bear with me!

I'm using a GM LU3 262 engine from a 2006 silverado.

in order from engine to transmission the parts are:
1. spacers to move everything 5mm transmission wards
2. GM 153t flywheel (168t is too big for ZF bellhousing)
2a. Staggered bolt pattern starter for 153t flywheel. This block is only drilled with the staggered holes not the straight across. I believe this to be the case from 2002 onwards
3. Marks 4wd adapter. Has holes for the GM crank pattern and has the crank diameter and profile on one side and on the other is the same as the Land rover flywheel alignment spigot.
4. Land Rover Flexible Drive plate and butress ring
5. land rover Torque Converter

I asked Dave from ashcroft about the drive plate to torque converter spacing and he indicated from 1 to 3mm maximum play from the fully seated torque converter (51mm back from bellhousing face) though I'm not clear if the correct amount of play is determined by the specific engine used or not. If it was I would be looking at specs for the GM which I'v heard is 1/8th to 3/16 inch (3-4mm?)

I'll post up some pics after I drop the kids off at school
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  #6  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 04:31 PM
ezzzzzzz
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Mark Garrenton
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The later gen III engines (2001+?) used a dished flywheel (but went to 168 tooth on everything as I recall) to compensate for the shorter crankshaft stickout. A flat 153 tooth flywheel will sit closer to the block and would account for the problem with the starter. Further reflection has me thinking that GM did not use a short or long nose starter as other manufacturers did instead they modified the flywheel. A spacer between the crankshaft and adapter to correct that offset would be in order. GM uses a 3 hole pattern for their torque converter. LR uses 4 holes. The problem with a GM flywheel is it won't allow for the 4 hole pattern (from all the flywheels I've seen). JW Performance makes a SFI rated (racing) flat flywheel that can be drilled for the 4 hole pattern but it runs around $250. I purchased one to mate a GM '96 LT1 to a LR ZF using a LSx bellhousing, adapter plate (LS bellhousing to ZF), and spacer to set the bellhousing off the engine for proper clearances. I'm guessing at this point that the appropriate spacer would correct the starter issue and set the torque converter to proper offset. 3mm=1/8". I'd focus on the torque converter clearance as the starter will probably fall where you need it to at that point.
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I need to go back to work for the break. Retirement is exhausting!

'71 IIA 88" LS1 hybrid
'84 110 5 door 'Nigerian Princess'
'90 RRC
'97 D1 LSE (parting out)
'02 D2 Kalahari
'02 D2 SE
'02 D2 SE
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  #7  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 06:27 PM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
1967 series 2a 109 NADA
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Location: Courtenay BC, canada
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that does match up with what I'm seeing. To me the starter gear still seems a hair too far into the ring gear but i haven't used the supplied shims yet at all. with the 5mm of spacing everything seems to line up correctly. It probably would have been cheaper to go the route you described but purchases have already been made!
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  #8  
Old June 3rd, 2016, 07:02 PM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
1967 series 2a 109 NADA
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some pics attached. everything here is just mocked up, nothing tightened all the way yet.
you can see that the bendix gear still comes out pretty far even with 5mm spacing
the third pic is the adapter bit from marks, showing the GM crank side.
the little red circle on the crank spigot is where I was considering getting an extension made to screw in if that pilot ended up being too short to take the spacer. I'm glad to hear that wont likely be necessary.
You can also see how close to the flywheel the flexible drive plate is.. not sure how I'm going to go about torquing the flexplate to torque converter bolts but that is a problem for a little later.
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  #9  
Old June 4th, 2016, 07:11 AM
ezzzzzzz
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Mark Garrenton
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That's interesting. I wonder why a manual flywheel was required instead of a custom or aftermarket flexplate? There seems to be enough gear engagement if it kicks out that far. Since your at this early stage I would consider getting the crank adapter modified to accept a press fit button to get more of the torque converter nose recessed. It will probably work fine as that plate it bolts to isn't going to flex at all though. Here's photos of what I came up with for a simple GM to ZF mating. There is a 1/4" plate machined to bolt the LSx bellhousing to the ZF case. The large thin ring spaces the engine forward to give the torque converter proper offset to the transmission. The JW Performance flywheel is pictured but it hasn't been drilled for the converter pattern yet. A pilot bushing will still be need to be fabbed for the converter nose to sit in.
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__________________
I need to go back to work for the break. Retirement is exhausting!

'71 IIA 88" LS1 hybrid
'84 110 5 door 'Nigerian Princess'
'90 RRC
'97 D1 LSE (parting out)
'02 D2 Kalahari
'02 D2 SE
'02 D2 SE
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  #10  
Old June 4th, 2016, 12:00 PM
RamblerRob
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Rob Apps
1967 series 2a 109 NADA
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Courtenay BC, canada
Posts: 99
Registry
I thought it still might have a touch too much gear engagement, its a bit over halfway, maybe 2/3, through the ring gear. I was under the impression it ought to be only about 1/2

Yours seems like a way more elegant mating. My plan in going for the kit was to avoid having to 'engineer' the conversion and do something ready made but I kinda blew that by going with the engine I did.
I haven't even got into the modifications i had to make to the oil pan nor the modifications I have to make to the starter mounting block to make it all work.

I bought a lot of stuff before I had anything physically to look at and play with so I really had no idea what kind of measurements and spacing issues I'd run into. If I was doing it again from scratch I'd do a bunch of things differently but I'm hopeful I can work it out in the end.... probably just in time for a different engine option to catch my eye... that new chev v6 looks interesting...lol
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  #11  
Old June 4th, 2016, 10:24 PM
ezzzzzzz
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Mark Garrenton
Too many here or gone to list here
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Posts: 758
You're experiencing what is to be expected with such a conversion kit. Changes come so fast that it's hard to keep up. Anyway, you're on your way and the end results will be worth it. The LU3 is a great engine with good weight to power.
__________________
I need to go back to work for the break. Retirement is exhausting!

'71 IIA 88" LS1 hybrid
'84 110 5 door 'Nigerian Princess'
'90 RRC
'97 D1 LSE (parting out)
'02 D2 Kalahari
'02 D2 SE
'02 D2 SE
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