Clutch Master/Slave Issues - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old August 28th, 2013, 07:17 PM
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Clutch Master/Slave Issues

Well, it happened! entering the highway upshifting to 4th, depress the clutch only to feel this feable resistance from the pedal. No clutch, actually more like a half a clutch. fluid level in the clutch MC was okay but it was filthy. Limped home by doing my best to stay in one or two gears and avoiding stoplights. rather than overdiagnos the issue, I simply decided to replace all the hydraulic components and be done with it.

Thanks to the many threads on this forum (and the search function) the replacement of the master cylinder was painless. I was surprised at the ease at which the MC box was removed from the bulkhead (especially given the amount of caked-up Waxoyl on the threads). So, the harder of the two components is in place and ready to go!

HOWEVER, the slave cylinder is a different story!
I'll save my rant about our friends at the northeast rover parts supplier, but lets just say I went over precisely what I needed and exactly what model of engine, bell housing and gearbox I had in my 110. Like every parts dealer, they were hung up on the odel year of the truck (which anyone knows is irrelevant when it comes to a UK/ROW 300TDi-swapped truck with an R380. In any event, in the essence of saving the hassle of not having all the correct parts, I ordered both types of slave cylinders offered as well as the flexible line that goes into the slave. I would have ordered the hard line as it was suggested but 1) it was not in stock and 2) it was quoted at $200!!!! Also, instead of the flexible line, I received a little pigtail looking hard line.
Now, before I go slamming the supplier (again), it is entirely possible that those pikers in the UK (Liveridge) came up with their own hybrid components that came from a Disco for all I know. All I know is that the slave cylinder(s) that they sent don't fit. I mean, they fit in the mount and receive the push rod just fine, but the fittings are a different thread size. Then upon further inspection (see photos) both replacements seem longer.

Does anyone know the correct slave cylinder part number or if the length of the cylinder isn't important, can anyone suggest the correct hydraulic adapter fitting (if they have run across this). I'm a bit frustrated with the supplier at this point because I run into this often when ordering ROW parts from them. I need this fixed ASAP! It's only going to take another 15 minutes plus bleeding, but Jesus Christ, I'd like to crawl under the truck with the correct parts next time!
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  #2  
Old August 28th, 2013, 07:20 PM
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PS-number stamped on the bottom of bell housing reads HRC2641

I realize that the original slave may appear shorter because the rubber boot has been removed, but there are also other subtle differences, mostly the inlet thread size. The flexible rubber hose fitting that goes into the slave is a coarser but apparently smaller thread size than the new slaves.
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Old August 28th, 2013, 07:37 PM
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Well, can you rebuild the old slave? Adapters are available at a good auto parts store. Also, pretty sure the factory setup would have a small hard line between the slave and the flex line. I left mine out but the 300tdi flex line fit right in there. You might have the old flex line from before your truck was converted. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the parts vendor for this.

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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
HOWEVER, the slave cylinder is a different story!
I'll save my rant about our friends at the northeast rover parts supplier,
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Old August 28th, 2013, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
Well, can you rebuild the old slave? Adapters are available at a good auto parts store. Also, pretty sure the factory setup would have a small hard line between the slave and the flex line. I left mine out but the 300tdi flex line fit right in there. You might have the old flex line from before your truck was converted. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the parts vendor for this.
Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking. Not immediately looking to blame anyone, just frustrated. Would have gone so smoothly, except......
Good idea about the rebuild kit.
I could order the rebuild kit, then search for an adapter at the hydraulic fitting fabricator one town over (they have everything)
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Old August 28th, 2013, 07:55 PM
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i've been down this road......converted row trucks are the worst for sourcing parts for and ran across the same problem in any event this is what i ended up doing , used standard slave with the small pig tail line fabbed up a bracket to hold steady to bell-housing and changed the lower flex-hose to accept the steel line
much easier than trying to explain to a parts jockey.. unless someone has the correct part #s for the slave and flex line i would like to know also
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  #6  
Old August 29th, 2013, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovertek View Post
i've been down this road......converted row trucks are the worst for sourcing parts for and ran across the same problem in any event this is what i ended up doing , used standard slave with the small pig tail line fabbed up a bracket to hold steady to bell-housing and changed the lower flex-hose to accept the steel line
much easier than trying to explain to a parts jockey.. unless someone has the correct part #s for the slave and flex line i would like to know also
This. You can see my solution in this pic. Sorry about the quality, but the line to the clutch slave can be seen in the left background. You have 3/8-24 UNF threads on that flex line and M10x1.0 on the clutch slave, so you need a short 3/16 " line to act as a gender bender.
You can get the nipples and pipe at Fed Hill.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 06:46 AM
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thanks Bill, the thread size into the Slave Cylinder is probably my best bet. I could just replace that flex line from where it connects to the hard line with a custom hose with correct end fittings (M10x1.0) on the slave end, then the other end that connects to the hard line (what type of fitting is that).
I'm going to head over to the hydraulic shop at noon (the place that rebuilds my tractor hydraulic cylinders), but the flex line is still on the truck and I won't have the luxury of bringing it with me. Any suggestions there?

Anyone know why there is even a small pigtail hard line at the slave end? only to connect to a flex line and back into the hard line? I get that there needs to be a rubber flex hose to deal with the vibrations, but why even re-introduce a hard pipe at the slave end?

Lastly, can anyone see a major difference among the two newer Slave Cylinders (other than one is black)?
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Old August 29th, 2013, 07:06 AM
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For the short pipe you will need the 3/8 to 3/8 union, a 3/8-24 DIN flare nut for 3/16 line and a M10x1.0 DIN flare nut for 3/16 line, and a short bit of 3/16 line with DIN flares both ends.
You could also buy the metric to AN, and imperial to AN adapters from Fedhill and then use the Aeroquip type braided stainless hose. There is s specific hose for hydraulic fluid so don't just buy any old -3 AN hose (although you can get premade braided stainless brake lines from Jegs, Summit, etc)
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Old August 29th, 2013, 07:18 AM
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Does the cone nut on the short pipe you have there thread onto the flex line? Does the other end thread into the slave? If so on both counts then you are all set.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Does the cone nut on the short pipe you have there thread onto the flex line? Does the other end thread into the slave? If so on both counts then you are all set.
Yes, the cone nut on the hard line does thread onto the end of the flexible hose (the end that threaded into the old slave cylinder).
The other end of that pigtail does NOT thread into the new slaves. haven't tried the old slave.

I think that the hydraulic specialty shop I'm going to at lunch will have everything I need. It's just a question of the most efficient and less ugly setup. I'd like to leave the flexible rubber hose (the one pictured above with my hand holding it) and simply connect something between the male end of the hose and the slave.
the reason I say this is because the union where the rubber hose connects to the hard line is a b*tch to reach and the mounting tab is already bent and suspect. I could see myself damaging the hard line if I twist it (and I don't have another hard line to use).

Both slave cylinders look like they will work, but any thoughts on those?
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Old August 29th, 2013, 08:53 AM
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Then you just need a 10 mm flare nut.
You might consider getting the AN adapter fittings and then you can buy the pre made -3 AN brake/clutch braided stainless hose.
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  #12  
Old August 29th, 2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Then you just need a 10 mm flare nut.
You might consider getting the AN adapter fittings and then you can buy the pre made -3 AN brake/clutch braided stainless hose.
well, I haven't explored getting pre-made hoses as you suggested, but after spending 45 minutes at the specialty hydraulic shop, I find that:
  1. The fitting type for the original Slave (and hose) is 3/8 - 24 ISO type
  2. The fitting type for both Pro-Line Slaves obtained through RN are M12x1.0 ISO type
  3. they tell me that the M12x1.0 fitting is rare and they'd have to special-order it (f-ing marvelous!)
So, my options would be:
  1. Keep looking for an adapter that has M12x1.0 ISO male end and a 3/8-24 ISO female end.
  2. Try to find the correct slave cylinder with 3/8 - 24 inlet fitting
  3. Maybe try to find the correct rebuilt kit for the existing slave.
After sending all these parts back to RN, my next step will be to reach out to AB or RDS or something/somebody that speaks the ROW language. Any first stop suggestions?
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Old August 29th, 2013, 01:36 PM
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This could help...

We know there are 2 different slave cylinders for the 300TDI.


We also know that the threads in the different cylinders are very different where the clutch hose attaches. I won’t go into the differences as Bill and company have done a good job to describe this.


If you’re lucky, one of the slave cylinders matches your current slave cylinder hose.
If this is the case, measure the dimensions and diameter bore of both cylinders and see if the internals you need to make your clutch work again, will fit into the slave cylinder that matches your brake hose (if the outside dimensions match).


Having worked on a few of these early 90 and 110s with TDI engine and or gearbox transplants, there is no fast rule as to which parts were used to make things function. There is often a hodge podge of whatever was available at the time from whatever year vehicle the donor engine and transmission came from.


The 300TDI R380s experienced a lot of clutch fork failures, so the later ones had a revised fork with a much longer clutch rod and a very different slave cylinder piston and seal, but I’ve personally never tried to swap the internals from one to another and have not taken outside measurements, but don’t rule out that this type of swap could have happened to your vehicle until you carefully check.


Just a thought…
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Old August 29th, 2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
We know there are 2 different slave cylinders for the 300TDI.


We also know that the threads in the different cylinders are very different where the clutch hose attaches. I won’t go into the differences as Bill and company have done a good job to describe this.


If you’re lucky, one of the slave cylinders matches your current slave cylinder hose.
If this is the case, measure the dimensions and diameter bore of both cylinders and see if the internals you need to make your clutch work again, will fit into the slave cylinder that matches your brake hose (if the outside dimensions match).


Having worked on a few of these early 90 and 110s with TDI engine and or gearbox transplants, there is no fast rule as to which parts were used to make things function. There is often a hodge podge of whatever was available at the time from whatever year vehicle the donor engine and transmission came from.


The 300TDI R380s experienced a lot of clutch fork failures, so the later ones had a revised fork with a much longer clutch rod and a very different slave cylinder piston and seal, but I’ve personally never tried to swap the internals from one to another and have not taken outside measurements, but don’t rule out that this type of swap could have happened to your vehicle until you carefully check.


Just a thought…
Yeah, I get the whole hodge-podge parts thing. Whats worse is that I cant find a single P/N anywhere on the old slave. I thoroughly cleaned it and took it apart and I have to say, I'm even questioning whether or not this is what failed in the first place. The seal is completely intact and aside from some scaling at the end of the bore (where the plunger/piston doesnt travel) it looks completely fine.
You have me a bit worried that I had a clutch fork failure and I went about replacing good M/C & S/C. I mean I didn't notice any fluid leaking in the footwell and the slave seems okay.

When you say fork failure, do you mean completely snapped or bent and partially working? I was still getting some throw when I depressed the clutch, just not enough to fully disengage clutch. I don't really see any way to test for this aside from perhaps manually pushing against the fork through the slave cylinder hole and feeling it (which seems impossible without some leverage). Anyway, let's hope its not that but thanks for the heads-up anyway.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 02:38 PM
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The clutch fork fails at the pivot ball seat. The pivot ball pushes thru the steel arm. This means the bellhousing has to come away from the engine.
There is what they call a heavy duty clutch fork that is basically the same stamped steel part but has an extra hunk of metal welded across the back of the pivot ball seat.
You may try to find one of the RRC 5 speed forks that are cast iron.
If the fork failed, the you might as well go and do the whole shizzle; new clutch lining, pressure plate, bearing, fork, pivot ball, etc.
Sucks.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 02:44 PM
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be careful not to mix up 3/8-24 and M-10 x 1.0 they are very similar and will often thread together but not really be a solid fit.

The 3/8 male will thread into the M10 female.
The M10 male will not thread into the 3/8 female

It's pretty unlikely there is any standard SAE stuff on your truck. Even the early shit was all metric.

You should be able to get a flex hose that goes into the M12 cylinder or maybe order the M12 adapter online.

But, you really should confirm that your flex hose is 3/8 and not M10.

Honestly, you are making this into a big deal when it is really just a matter of figuring out what you actually have and getting the right fittings to put them together. It happens all the time:

http://tinyurl.com/nvebo5s
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Old August 29th, 2013, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
be careful not to mix up 3/8-24 and M-10 x 1.0 they are very similar and will often thread together but not really be a solid fit.

The 3/8 male will thread into the M10 female.
The M10 male will not thread into the 3/8 female

It's pretty unlikely there is any standard SAE stuff on your truck. Even the early shit was all metric.

You should be able to get a flex hose that goes into the M12 cylinder or maybe order the M12 adapter online.

But, you really should confirm that your flex hose is 3/8 and not M10.

Honestly, you are making this into a big deal when it is really just a matter of figuring out what you need and getting the right fittings:

http://tinyurl.com/nvebo5s
Understood. I will double check, but pretty sure it was 3/8-24, but then again with it still on the truck connected to the hard line I should confirm. It would suck to get it all together and have it not seal.....and tear the threads up in the process.

My next step (before monkeying around any more) is just to confirm that the fork as not failed. I should be able to look right inside and see where the rod seats on the fork from what Bill has described.

....and Bill, you're absolutely correct if that's the case (and I hope it isn't), I would definately do the entire clutch while we are in there.
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  #18  
Old August 29th, 2013, 03:01 PM
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Due to the sudden onset of the problem, I would think less that it is a seal failure on the master or slave and more that the fork failed.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Due to the sudden onset of the problem, I would think less that it is a seal failure on the master or slave and more that the fork failed.
An inspection later this evening will probably confirm that you are correct.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 04:50 PM
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I spent weekend before last (about 14hrs or so) installing a new clutch in a 300TDI 110.
The clutch worked perfectly, until one of the driven plate springs came out of the clutch disk, got jammed in the pressure plate and prevented it from releasing.

We naturally started by replacing the clutch master and slave just to be sure (because I always replace them when installing a new clutch unless there is a good reason not to).

Regarding the release fork, it has been my experience that the 2 pins that hold and position the clutch fork thrust pads is what generally wears out and requires the fork to be replaced.
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