Clutch Hydraulics confusion - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 17th, 2016, 02:36 AM
agentmulder
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Clutch Hydraulics confusion

Hello all,

PUMA model Defender 2008.

Bit of a head scratcher here after replacing my clutch master cylinder, I've bled it and had no bubbles coming through for quite a few pumps, but now that I've topped up the reservoir and closed the bleed valve the clutch pedal will still fall to the floor and stay there - i.e. no spring return from the clutch itself.

I'm not losing any fluid or see any leaks.

The original problem displayed similar symptoms where the pedal would fall to the floor - but only after a fair amount of driving without using the clutch, and pumping a couple of times would get it working again.

It is now like this all the time.

(Master cylinder was a relatively easy/cheap 'try it and see' diagnostic.)

I'm wondering how I've made it worse? Or have I just forgotten some simple step in working with the clutch hydraulics?

My only thought is that there is still air in the line and depressing the clutch is compressing that instead of hydraulically activating the slave cylinder - but if I'm not seeing air in the fluid then ??



Any tips appreciated.
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  #2  
Old January 17th, 2016, 08:11 AM
jabber
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m j
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Air is still in the line.

Either a one man bleeder system or you can take a long clear hose from the bleed nipple back to the MC. The latter is fairly easy and cheap for one person to do. You end up adding a little more fluid due to the length of tube, but it works. Clear tube allows you to see the bubbles leaving. Have a catch can/jar once you pull the hose, for the extra fluid once you pull the hose.
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  #3  
Old January 17th, 2016, 10:48 AM
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roverman2010
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Best to get is a power bleeder. One that uses air pressure to force the fluid out of the master cylinder to the slave bleed nipple. RHD Land Rovers are always that little bit harder to bleed as the pipe work winds all over the place.

I would not recommend the practice of using a long hose from the bleed nipple back to the master as you are going to introduce aerated fluid back into the master making it worst.

Take your time use plenty of fresh fluid. You can try leaving your clutch peddle jambed down over night and any small bubbles in the uphill pipes will work their way up and when you release the peddle any air will excape into the fluid cup.

God luck
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  #4  
Old January 17th, 2016, 10:59 AM
jabber
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Should have been more detailed. Put the hose above the MC res, not directly in. Fluid goes back in, air comes out.
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  #5  
Old January 17th, 2016, 11:12 AM
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Oh that old chestnut, try this
How to Bleed Your Brakes - For Dummies

A power bleeder is still the best way
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Edward Teach is the Blackbeard, and is a member of the Birmabright Brotherhood.

Still looking for that place where I can carry a paddle and get asked what's that.

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FC101 GS FFR
57 LR 88" SXF 858
85 LR90
95 D1 Tdi
05 D3 HSE
97 XK8 BRG FHC For Sale
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  #6  
Old January 17th, 2016, 11:34 AM
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Reverse bleed using a 50cc syringe, 30cm of clear tubing, and attached to bleed nipple at SC. Easy, fast, works. There is a video online if needed: "reverse bleed clutch defender" will work for searching. I find the syringe to be key as opposed to other methods of pumping.
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  #7  
Old January 17th, 2016, 01:18 PM
jabber
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Great, I'll have to spend the 50-60 and get one. All I'm saying is it worked on my daily driver. Didn't have one of those, nor did I have a syringe.

OP, use what you can to get it working. Bottom line... There's air in your clutch hydraulics.
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  #8  
Old January 17th, 2016, 02:28 PM
agentmulder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabber View Post
Bottom line... There's air in your clutch hydraulics.
That's what I thought, just bummed that the current bleed setup of a one man bleed kit isn't working for me.

I will try pushing the fluid a bit more forcefully next time round and see if that changes anything, but I'll have to figure out a way to tie on the little tapered and slippery nozzle so the added flow doesn't push it out (again).

I'll read up on the other methods too, reverse makes a lot of sense - a combo of approaches might work in the end.

Thanks all, will report back in 5 days (going on hols without landy )

------ Follow up post added January 18th, 2016 08:32 AM ------

Just realized I do have a spare cap from my old master cyl and a regulated compressor here ...

Might be able to make my own reverse power bleeder :D

Soooo, follow up question: whhyyyyy does the hard line have a section running behind what I assume is the electronics that is above the MC output (and of course above the slave end)? Seems like this is asking for bubbles to persist.
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  #9  
Old January 17th, 2016, 04:52 PM
Departing90
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Im sure your aware that you should bleed the system untill fresh fluid comes out & all air bubbles are gone!

You've prob done tgis a few times already so it can ONLY mean that you didnt bench bleed tye MC and there is air trapped in the cylinder!

For a quick remedy, remove the top hose to tge MC, have someone press tye pedal all tye way to tye floor & fill the chanber with fluid. Have tgem release tye pedal and make sure tye chanber is full. Add fluid if needed.

Bleed with the clear hose going from the slave into tye master & 10-15 pedals and your done. I would have changed tye slave also!

Its too late now as youve already contaminated tye system with either DOT 3 or 4 but if you had used DOT 5 "NOT 5.1" you could have finnished bleeding and forgot about about it for 5 years minimum! !
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  #10  
Old January 18th, 2016, 03:39 AM
agentmulder
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Thanks for the tips, yes, turned out there was a belch or three of air in there.

I solved it by buying a oil can and some 5mm dia clear hose that mounted directly to the slave bleed thingy (no more tapered connectors to fall out) - about 15 strong pumps would fill up the MC reservoir before I'd drain it with the syringe and the first few iterations sent up the offending bubbles.

I like the idea of the cyclical system and just using the clutch - but I didn't have enough hose for that, and reverse was nice in that bubbles were more apt to travel in that direction.

One man bleed kit obviosuly not so helpful in this case.

Anyways, took it for a spin and lo and behold the clutch action feels smoother than the one on my mates new Puma - and no more apparent 'loss' of action after running for a while which was the original issue. Don't fully trust it for driving out of town, but some local driving will test it out - if it stays good then I'll be very happy as I would have saved accessing the slave that resides in the transmission

Thanks again all!

------ Follow up post added January 18th, 2016 09:40 PM ------

p.s.

Cost of oil pump and tube is much less than those bleeder kits...
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  #11  
Old January 18th, 2016, 07:31 AM
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xjahx
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Reverse bleed for the win every time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by agentmulder View Post
Thanks for the tips, yes, turned out there was a belch or three of air in there.

I solved it by buying a oil can and some 5mm dia clear hose that mounted directly to the slave bleed thingy (no more tapered connectors to fall out) - about 15 strong pumps would fill up the MC reservoir before I'd drain it with the syringe and the first few iterations sent up the offending bubbles.

I like the idea of the cyclical system and just using the clutch - but I didn't have enough hose for that, and reverse was nice in that bubbles were more apt to travel in that direction.

One man bleed kit obviosuly not so helpful in this case.

Anyways, took it for a spin and lo and behold the clutch action feels smoother than the one on my mates new Puma - and no more apparent 'loss' of action after running for a while which was the original issue. Don't fully trust it for driving out of town, but some local driving will test it out - if it stays good then I'll be very happy as I would have saved accessing the slave that resides in the transmission

Thanks again all!

------ Follow up post added January 18th, 2016 09:40 PM ------

p.s.

Cost of oil pump and tube is much less than those bleeder kits...
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