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  #21  
Old July 21st, 2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Just FYI in our containers you can't even have parts that "add up" to what you guys are calling parts.
Been there, done that, had to pay to ship the stuff back to the UK.

A "body" that was a vehicle, on a frame with axles and the engine and trans gone would need to be cut in half on the frame/ uni-body and behind the A pillar in order to be classed as "parts" according to Customs/DOT in Boston MA.
They do not classify a truck with no drivetrain as "parts".

Good luck.
Well, that is not what the .gov website or the letter opinions say, but it brings up another point which is you are dealing with the .gov and, if they don't like you, you have to fight them which costs time and money.

From the .gov website

"A disassembled vehicle that is shipped without an engine and transmission is treated for importation purposes not as a motor vehicle, but instead as an assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. Such an assemblage can lawfully be imported into the U.S., provided any equipment included in the assemblage that is subject to FMVSS, but was not originally manufactured to comply with that FMVSS or was not so certified by its original manufacturer, is removed from the assemblage prior to entry into the U.S. Equipment items that are subject to the FMVSS include tires, rims, brake hoses, brake fluid, seat belt assemblies, glazing materials, and lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment."
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  #22  
Old July 21st, 2009, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjva
If you go to NHSTA.gov under car imports FAQ part 1 number 10 it states you can import a dissasembled vehicle (without engine and transmission) without it being classed a motor vehicle but then you would not have title.
That is incorrect and outdated information.
If you would like to know more on why and what will happen if you try it contact Coleman Sachs at the DOT/NHTSA. He is the one, along with US Customs that classified our parts.

The DOT classifies a "kit car" or "parts" as something that has never been assembled or on the road, like a Superformance Cobra.
If you take a 110 and take the engine out is was a car and always will be a car and is not importable as parts.

PS. don't think that I agree with this crap in anyway, it is just the real world facts (not what you find on the net) after importing containers for the last 15 years.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Well, that is not what the .gov website or the letter opinions say, but it brings up another point which is you are dealing with the .gov and, if they don't like you, you have to fight them which costs time and money.

From the .gov website

"A disassembled vehicle that is shipped without an engine and transmission is treated for importation purposes not as a motor vehicle, but instead as an assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. Such an assemblage can lawfully be imported into the U.S., provided any equipment included in the assemblage that is subject to FMVSS, but was not originally manufactured to comply with that FMVSS or was not so certified by its original manufacturer, is removed from the assemblage prior to entry into the U.S. Equipment items that are subject to the FMVSS include tires, rims, brake hoses, brake fluid, seat belt assemblies, glazing materials, and lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment."

This is correct, but what you are not seeing in the text is that if it ever was a car or truck, if it was ever on the road, or fully assembled at any time in its life this ruling does not apply.
I tried and failed.
Again, this is real world experience, not what you think you find on the net.

The ruling above was put in place for kit car places like Superformance, Noble, Atom and others. Cars that never had an engine. A Land Rover Defender does not fit these rules, however one of those kit CKD 110s would be classified as parts if you removed the engine and trans from the "kit".

Again, been there, done that. Got a few in as "parts", then they clamped down.

If you think you know better ask the dude:

Coleman.Sachs@nhtsa.dot.gov
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  #23  
Old July 21st, 2009, 03:50 PM
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"If you think you know better ask the dude:

Coleman.Sachs@nhtsa.dot.gov"

I know Mike got a couple newer body shells turned back and I have no desire to import just parts so i have no dog in this fight, but there is nothing in the regulations or forms or anything I can find that indicates that that Coleman guy has a legal basis to exclude the parts. I would be curious to see what he pointed you too or if he was just being contrarian and he made up the kit car bit. In fact, there are many letters, in addition to the website, that indicate no drivetrain = parts no matter if it was once a car or not (letter are from the cheif counsel). For example:

http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/23894.ztv.html

"A vehicle without an engine and transmission is considered to be an assemblage of parts."

Probably worth a call to your local office to confirm before shipping anything. Like I said in the what's legal thread, you can always write a letter and ask for an interpretation.

Ron
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  #24  
Old July 21st, 2009, 03:53 PM
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It is legal to import used parts to sell as used parts.
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  #25  
Old July 21st, 2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
"If you think you know better ask the dude:

Coleman.Sachs@nhtsa.dot.gov"

I know Mike got a couple newer body shells turned back and I have no desire to import just parts so i have no dog in this fight, but there is nothing in the regulations or forms or anything I can find that indicates that that Coleman guy has a legal basis to exclude the parts. I would be curious to see what he pointed you too or if he was just being contrarian and he made up the kit car bit. In fact, there are many letters, in addition to the website, that indicate no drivetrain = parts no matter if it was once a car or not (letter are from the cheif counsel). For example:

http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/23894.ztv.html

"A vehicle without an engine and transmission is considered to be an assemblage of parts."

Probably worth a call to your local office to confirm before shipping anything. Like I said in the what's legal thread, you can always write a letter and ask for an interpretation.

Ron
Actually it is all up to the Customs guy.
I asked for written clarification (formally) of what was "an assemblage of parts" and what was "a car" when we had a body assembly from Equicar turned back (no engine, no front clip, no frame, no axles, no suspension, etc)
The DOT's closest clarification I got (only via email not a reply to my formal inquiry) was "If it ever had a motor or was ever on the road it was a "car" and always will be.

The DOT/NHTSA said there was no written black and white on that subject and that they would not offer one. They said it was up to the individual Custom agent. So when you think you can go "black and white" and "I know better because it says so in the text" with the Custom guy you are dead wrong.
Again, you are quoting the internet text. I am speaking from real world experience with this exact situation.

What you are missing is that the DOT considers that if something ever was a car that it always will be a car, no matter what you do to it. In their eyes an "assemblage of parts" was never a "car" and a "car" can never again become an "assemblage of parts". That is the key to reading the law of "parts".
It is also the same reason that when we now import brand new body parts we can import all we like, as they were never a truck/car.
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  #26  
Old July 21st, 2009, 05:07 PM
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"The DOT/NHTSA said there was no written black and white on that subject and that they would not offer one."

"Actually it is all up to the Customs guy."

Mike,
I think you were just being screwed by a customs guy who did not like you and the above two statements reflect how govt officials abuse their authority. Like I said, there are interpretation letters that say your experience is against the letter of the law as interpreted by DOT and NHTSA. I will try to dig up the other one I know I saw involving a used vehicle.

Ron
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  #27  
Old July 21st, 2009, 05:12 PM
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I would be willing to import and disassemble and part out vehicles here (Canada) as long as they were not imported with title into the US as parts or otherwise. At the same time if you did have a legal title for a 90/110 or a Defender 90/110 that you could drive here, you would be welcome to swap parts here in my shop to your hearts content and then drive back. This is really the only appropriate way to do what you want to do.
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  #28  
Old July 21st, 2009, 06:01 PM
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Ron,
I quoted all those letters in my 2 month long rebuttle of what was going on when that shippment got refused. It was the DOT that said they could not help and that it was up to the Customs official. So no amount of detail from the DOT helped. I found and quoted all those letters and it made no difference.
A key point to this is that the DOT is not an enforcing body. Customs is. So it comes down to what Customs says goes, no matter really what the DOT says.
My lawyer and Customs agent all worked on it as well. End game... Customs guys with a stick up their butt made it all "go away" back to the UK.
Lesson learned... I'll never try to import anything as "parts" again, unless it truly is new parts in bags and boxes from Rover.

You all can try what you like. :-) ;-)
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  #29  
Old July 21st, 2009, 07:20 PM
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It seems that the individual customs officer is the key issue. I always thought that the 25 year rule was down to the exact date but reading here it looks like some 84 and 83 models were allowed in as if the first of the year.
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  #30  
Old July 21st, 2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjva
It seems that the individual customs officer is the key issue. I always thought that the 25 year rule was down to the exact date but reading here it looks like some 84 and 83 models were allowed in as if the first of the year.
EPA is exact date, but that's a 21-year rule. DOT is 25, but goes by model year. So EPA is moot by the time DOT rolls around.
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  #31  
Old July 21st, 2009, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Ron,
I quoted all those letters in my 2 month long rebuttle of what was going on when that shippment got refused. It was the DOT that said they could not help and that it was up to the Customs official. So no amount of detail from the DOT helped. I found and quoted all those letters and it made no difference.
A key point to this is that the DOT is not an enforcing body. Customs is. So it comes down to what Customs says goes, no matter really what the DOT says.
My lawyer and Customs agent all worked on it as well. End game... Customs guys with a stick up their butt made it all "go away" back to the UK.
Lesson learned... I'll never try to import anything as "parts" again, unless it truly is new parts in bags and boxes from Rover.

You all can try what you like. :-) ;-)
That sucks. Often, as I am sure you have figure out, it is cheaper to give in than fight it by bringing suit. For me, I think I will just stick to buying my parts from you and everyone else on this side of the pond.
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  #32  
Old July 22nd, 2009, 09:07 AM
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Just for the sake of argument if you took a 15 year old Rover into Canada, broke it down strapped the bodyshell on a flatbed and actually got it in along with the rest of the parts and built it back up what good would it do you as you still could not register it or get a title without some form of deception. There was a late 110 on the black "Antique" Virginia plates at the MAR a couple of years ago so I guess anything can be done
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  #33  
Old July 22nd, 2009, 09:16 AM
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People do it every day or there would be no gray market Defenders in the US and as we all know there are quite a few about.

It is a liability issue plain and simple. Is having that Defender more important than the risks associated with driving a vehicle that is not really legal.

I was in the process of building a gray market Defender from scratch and decided it was more important to be legal and I bought an NAS and sold the project on as parts.

Also the NAS 110s hold their value the gray market trucks do not.
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  #34  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:17 PM
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So where is this rig? What country? How quickly do you want to sell it?
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  #35  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:19 PM
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It's not mine. It almost was. It's in Costa Rica. I'm not going to waste the sellers time unless there is someone serious with a way to import it into Canada.
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  #36  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:24 PM
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I sure would like the interior, trans, and engine. Sounds like it is not ment to be. Thanks
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