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  #1  
Old October 5th, 2005, 02:00 PM
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Calling all diesel guys - Biodiesel???

Hey guys,
I was just wondering if any of you have tried the biodiesel in your trucks? I am not talking specifically about the left over grease from restaurants, I'm talking about the certified biodiesel, i.e. B100 or B20, etc.

I am thinking of swapping my old mazda commuter car for a tdi golf and using biodiesel in it and want some feedback. Thanks!
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  #2  
Old October 5th, 2005, 02:17 PM
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My friend runs B20 in his 2003 TDi Jetta, no problems and it smells like fried dough! I hear in some older cars that you need to change the flexibale fuel lines, but I don't thenk VWs have that problem. And some older diesels that have allot of gunk built up may run crappy for a little on Bio as it can fre up the gunk, but the engine will run better once it is cleande out by the biodiesel.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 03:22 PM
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Thats the same that I've heard... older cars may need all the rubber lines changed, as the biodiesel is a bit different molecularly and will eat up some kinds of fuel line. Other than that, it does burn cleaner. No idea about mileage.

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  #4  
Old October 5th, 2005, 04:46 PM
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you should get the same mileage...theoretically
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Old October 5th, 2005, 04:52 PM
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Marchand runs B20, I would run Bio if the nearest filling station wasn't 30 mile in the wrong direction. Very cool stuff and I am a huge fan of the concept of American grown, US farmer supporting, produced fuel. I think there should be a bigger push towards Bio and that car companies should forget about hybrid cars and develop better diesel engines. It's true about the fuel lines but I think those are pre 85' vehicles. Bio has a stronger natural solvent and will clean all the junk out of your lines and tank. It is recommended that you change your fuel filter after a few tanks. The stuff is very safe and non toxic, supposedly you can eat it. It also reduces all emissions for the exception of Nox, which will increase a few %.
Milage is not suppose to be effected in a + or - way.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 05:01 PM
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preach it. now only to swap for a 2.8ps....
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Old October 5th, 2005, 07:17 PM
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Well, I did read somewhere that the production of corn has a huge, detrimental impact to the environment so if that's the veggie of choice for biodiesel it ain't gonna cut it.

Furthermore, I doubt we can supply the anticipated demand by growing it ourselves.

Hybrid is the wave of the future here with the eventual switch to an all hydrogen setup. Biodiesel will only be a stopgap measure and as such will not get the investment neded.

I say if you're running diesel just stick with it. You know what you're getting. Biodiesel just introduces more questions and potential problems. I wouldn't risk it with my Tdi - let alone a 2.8! Ooh, la, la...
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Old October 5th, 2005, 07:37 PM
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I run bio-d fairly often depending on my access to it. I get reduced fuel mileage if I'm pulling a heavy load, but I dont detect much difference in normal use. its eating the paint on my fuel tank where its spilled a bit. i clogged a fuel filter by using a dirty fuel storage drum and then I got the bottom of a barrel one time. standards can be inconsistent, but I dont mind being a beta tester.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheki
Marchand runs B20, I would run Bio if the nearest filling station wasn't 30 mile in the wrong direction. Very cool stuff and I am a huge fan of the concept of American grown, US farmer supporting, produced fuel. I think there should be a bigger push towards Bio and that car companies should forget about hybrid cars and develop better diesel engines. It's true about the fuel lines but I think those are pre 85' vehicles. Bio has a stronger natural solvent and will clean all the junk out of your lines and tank. It is recommended that you change your fuel filter after a few tanks. The stuff is very safe and non toxic, supposedly you can eat it. It also reduces all emissions for the exception of Nox, which will increase a few %.
Milage is not suppose to be effected in a + or - way.
So very true, and these are the exact points that I am talking about. Hybrid is not going anywhere fast, they only get normal mileage on the freeway anyway, diesel tech gets even better mileage on the freeway! I wish companies would push diesel tech too. You know when Rudolph Diesel first invented his engine, it was meant to be so that the farmers could grow thier own fuel. His original vision was peanut oil!! It wasn't until about 1920 that someone came up with petro-diesel (which is actually a by-product of gasoline) and the oil companies pushed it so hard that it stuck.

Quote:
Well, I did read somewhere that the production of corn has a huge, detrimental impact to the environment so if that's the veggie of choice for biodiesel it ain't gonna cut it.

Furthermore, I doubt we can supply the anticipated demand by growing it ourselves.

Hybrid is the wave of the future here with the eventual switch to an all hydrogen setup. Biodiesel will only be a stopgap measure and as such will not get the investment neded.

I say if you're running diesel just stick with it. You know what you're getting. Biodiesel just introduces more questions and potential problems. I wouldn't risk it with my Tdi - let alone a 2.8! Ooh, la, la...
They do not use corn for it, they use soy generally nowadays, so there's little to no impact on the environment. If we really need to up the production (obviously in the future) to meet the demand, all we have to do is genetically engineer soy beans that are the size of a baseball and we'll be set. Of course the feds wouldn't allow us to use the genetically engineered stuff for eating, but for fuel it's perfect, then we woul dbe in total control and not have to worry about buying it from anybody else.

I agree that the final switch will be to Hydrogen fuel cell tech, that's definately the way to go, but right now there's no infrastructure for it. For biodiesel, it doesn't matter, cause a gas pump doesn't care what it's pumping as long as it's liquid, that would even keep the gas stations in business (one more boon for the economy).

There are many regulations on biodiesel now, it's not as hodgepodge as it was a few years ago. Minnesota even requires that all diesel fuels in their state contain a small percentage of biodiesel. It's perfectly fine for the engines, VW will even honor warranties up to a certain percentage of biodiesel. I don't see a single potential problem of it over diesel, just benefits.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 08:26 PM
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1. Hybrid is not going anywhere fast: what?! we already have a hybrid SUV coming out and the demand for smaller hybrids is growing exponentially.

2. Hybrids get only normal mileage on freeway and diesel gets better: Not true at all. The freeway is where hybrids excel, where average power is needed least. and the least gas is used.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 08:31 PM
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DS said it. I've been running B20 for the last year and half and 15K miles, on and off when I can find it. Pretty much since my engine was new. I don't see any real differences in mileage, get up and go, etc. It's conveinient to fill-up next to my office. And the bio sticker makes the greenies happy in their prius's. Occasionally they throw panties my way.

Really, if you're going to use it. Make sure you get it from a place that sells quite a bit. I would be concerned if I saw jo-bob mixing a "special" batch in the back of the station. You can actually find B20 at lot's of truck stops these days.

I wouldn't run lower than B20. Maybe on a diesel pickup (duramax), you could go to B100. But that's hard to find anyway.

I think Hybrids are a stop gap to full Hydrogen cars. Or unless some tremedous leap is made in battery cell technology in our lifetime.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 08:33 PM
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hybrids are lame
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Old October 5th, 2005, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
1. Hybrid is not going anywhere fast: what?! we already have a hybrid SUV coming out and the demand for smaller hybrids is growing exponentially.

2. Hybrids get only normal mileage on freeway and diesel gets better: Not true at all. The freeway is where hybrids excel, where average power is needed least. and the least gas is used.
umm then would you explain why the prius gets worse mpgs on the highway? The same with the Toytos Highlander and quiet a few other hybrids.

Hybrids get better mpgs by using the energy normaly wasted when stopping to start. They do this by charging batteries. The other way some of them get high mpgs is by having low drag coefficient and running smaller engines with low HP.

I mean to me it's a no brainer, let's see you can put a diesel engine in a car that is relativly quiet (have you heard the new diesel Libirty very quiet) and get very respectable milage, diesels are a proven technology, and the engines last forever. Your silly hybrids are a new technology, they have batteries that last 8 or so years then they need to be replace at a major bling factor and the ones that have real good mpgs 40+ are the smallest cars oin the road! Currently I see a hybrid as a yuppy car, for those people who want everyone to know that they are helping the enviroment, if you want to help that much ride your bike to work! I think hybrids could do better, I once saw one that used compressed gass instead of batteries, and it looked to work pretty good, it was on a 6600lb pickup and it could push the truck to 25mph from a stop unasisted.

I don't consider Hydrogen to be a hybrid, it is a full on different engine, they sound awsome, and I hope that the big oil companies are not holding back the technology.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 09:47 PM
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The way i see it - why apply a complex solution when a simple one will do? the VW lupo in Europe runs a 3 cyl diesel engine and achieves over 70mpg. Sure its a little shitbox, but for commuting and running around its great.

The hybrids on the market (which get better mileage around town BTW) dont deliver nearly enough gains in my mind to justify the extra complexity, and certainly not the extra cost.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Here is a great article on the falicy of current hybrids, edmunds hybrid analysis

So many people think they are saving so much cash on these things, when in reality its the same issue as converting a d-90 to diesel.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
Well, I did read somewhere that the production of corn has a huge, detrimental impact to the environment so if that's the veggie of choice for biodiesel it ain't gonna cut it.

Furthermore, I doubt we can supply the anticipated demand by growing it ourselves.
Corn has a detrimental impact to the environment because we keep shipping nutrients from the midwest to the coastal states and don't ship nutrients from the coastal states back. This happens with every crop, that's why you're supposed to rotate and leave fields farrow. Right now it is cheaper to just dump stuff and fertilize with inorganics, but fuel costs are changing that. Also, current regulations make it really hard to use organic fertilizers (and I don't mean the expensive stuff at the high end stores, I mean crap) even though research shows they are much better for the environment.

But why use something as expensive as corn as the fuel source? You're better off using corn to feed stuff and use winter cover crops (wheats etc.) or dedicated winter BD crops (there's a good winter grape that they're looking at using here) because the replace the nutrients the normal crops strip out.

Also, there's some new technologies out there. The last one that showed promise that I heard about was "Cellulosic Depolymerization" or something like that. The gist is they take anything with carbon in it, squeeze it, crack the pressure off, and do it some more to replicate being in the ground for years. They get water, coal, diesel, and natural gas. That's it. There is a feedmill and processing plant out west doing this as a trial right now. From what I understand the processing plant "waste" is powering the feedmill. Obviously the technology takes tweeking, but we're getting there.

If you're curious: http://mawaterquality.org/VA_Waste/v...ons_forum.html
(I'm updating the site right now, I didn't write that one either)

Sorry about the soap box, just passionate about this one.

And if any of this doesn't work we can always go back the objective of the first diesel - coal dust
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Old October 6th, 2005, 01:02 AM
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One of my customers talked to me about coal gasification today. There is a push for it up in Montana and Wyoming. Seems with our current known coal supplies we could produce diesel fuel for our country, in house, for 150 plus years. And the diesel fuel produced from coal is sulpherless and better grade. Mix a little bio product in, and there may be a future for the diesel fuel pump again.

From the midwest
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Old October 6th, 2005, 01:06 AM
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Thats very cool! Of course, Utah has more Oil under it than any country on earth other than Saudi Arabia but the Enviro-nazis won't let us touch it. I am sure they will have a big problem with coal too.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
1. Hybrid is not going anywhere fast: what?! we already have a hybrid SUV coming out and the demand for smaller hybrids is growing exponentially.

2. Hybrids get only normal mileage on freeway and diesel gets better: Not true at all. The freeway is where hybrids excel, where average power is needed least. and the least gas is used.
I found this info from Hybridcars.com
Hybrid engines are built smaller to accommodate the 99% of time when not going up hill or accelerating quickly. It uses the battery to provide extra acceleration power when needed.
When the car is stopped, hybrid gasoline motors can shut off and run off their electric motor and battery.
Hybrid cars are often lighter and more aerodynamic; tires are often stiffer and inflated higher to reduce drag.
Hybrid cars often recover braking energy and use it to charge the battery.

my interpretation is, you are using gas most of the time, the only real reason the mileage is better is due to the smaller vehicle and engine. you will most likely get better mileage from a diesel VW golf (50-60mpg). If you really wanted to be a true tree hugger, you can always run WVO (wasted Veggie Oil), which is not considered biodiesel by the US government or recognized as a fuel source.
quick info on Bio
http://www.biodieselnow.com/default.asp

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
Well, I did read somewhere that the production of corn has a huge, detrimental impact to the environment so if that's the veggie of choice for biodiesel it ain't gonna cut it.

Furthermore, I doubt we can supply the anticipated demand by growing it ourselves.
You must not be aware, but we pay farmers in the US not to grow crops because of surplus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
Hybrid is the wave of the future here with the eventual switch to an all hydrogen setup. Biodiesel will only be a stopgap measure and as such will not get the investment needed.

I say if you're running diesel just stick with it. You know what you're getting. Biodiesel just introduces more questions and potential problems. I wouldn't risk it with my Tdi - let alone a 2.8! Ooh, la, la...
The car manufacturers are selling Hybrid vehicles for a loss because the batteries are so expensive and the technology is so new. I can't even fathom the cost of having to pay to replace the batteries. I'm guessing it is in the multiple of thousands of $. Also you have no choice but to go to a dealer, as no independent mechanic will even touch one of those things. Hope they at least offer a very long warranty.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 09:47 AM
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From what I have been reading about the Prius (Toyota’s hybrid) it gets the best mileage in slow speed city driving (28 MPH and under) due to the fact that it uses the electric motor for power. However the Mileage drops once it is on the highway because it is using the gas motor instead of the electric.

EPA Ratings for the Prius

EPA city/highway, mpg 60/51

While there are some perks associated with driving a hybrid such as being able to drive in the car pool lane with 1 person, some places offer free tolls and tax credits I think that the negatives far outweigh the perks.

For example…

In a crash that requires extraction the emergency personal have to use special precautions to extract a victim from the crash due to the high voltage. In a situation where time is of the essence I do not want to be waiting for the emergency personal to disconnect or de energize the system.

Due to the complexity and relativity new technology that the cars use your primary repair facility will be limited to the dealerships.

Battery replacement is extremely expensive, additionally what will be the future environmental impact of the batteries?

It still relies on gas and does not get that great of gas mileage so the savings are not there for the consumer.

With that said I think that Hybrids will continue to grow in numbers due to the perception that they are the future, people feel good about themselves for driving one and the fact that the US government seems to have adopted it as a viable solution.

Personally I think that BIO and WVO make more sense as a short term solution. The VW gets 48 MPG and if push comes to shove you can still drive it in a gas crisis unlike the Hybrids that rely on gas. Not to mention I would rather support a farmer than a Sheik or Texas oil tycoon

But I would rather have a TDI Defender
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