Bosch VE Gauge - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old May 5th, 2016, 02:16 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Bosch VE Gauge

The only diesel IP specialist I know of and trust in the area does not own a gauge for my dinosaur of a IP. Can someone confirm this dial gauge will likely do the trick?

If there is anyone local that has one I can rent please send me a smoke signal or grab the other end of this can and string.

Amazon.com: Diesel Fuel Injection Pump Timing Indicator Tool for VW/AUDI/Ford etc...: Automotive
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old May 5th, 2016, 02:21 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,250
Registry
Should work, but are you serious? The VE pump is commoner than dirt. You understand this is just for setting the timing?

A cheaper option with your own dial gauge: http://www.amazon.com/BOSCH-INJECTIO...osch+ve+timing
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 5th, 2016, 02:55 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Wish I weren't but there are not many folks with a Bosch shingle hanging in front of their shop around here. This shop owner is someone I feel I can trust so it's worth some investment IMO.

I'm plotting out options to deal with what I think is a fuel issue. At least I'd like to know if the settings are standard or not. Right now the idle is rough with strong vibes when engine is cold. More IMO than what I even experienced with my old 2.5NAD. The road manners actually seem good, maybe even above average but it is currently idling at 850+ and can't get it to drop.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old May 5th, 2016, 03:20 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,250
Registry
Which engine? I say this because on a Defender 200TDI, there is not room to use a dial indicator on the vehicle.

I would check injectors first.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 5th, 2016, 03:27 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Ha!, figures, and about par for the course so far with this swap. It's a Disco 200 in a Defender btw.

Injectors were recently rebuilt with new Bosch nozzles. Lord knows there are no guarantees that the nozzles are any good though.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 5th, 2016, 03:31 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,250
Registry
You might be able to with a Disco engine. With the Defender, the oil filter housing is in the way.

Did the person that did the injectors have the proper equipment to set and balance the two stage injectors? Not many do...
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 5th, 2016, 03:35 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
I feel like I should double check. Blue Ridge Diesel is considered a great shop hear in VA and the guy assisting me is a 200tdi owner. I can ask to be certain.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old May 5th, 2016, 03:51 PM
LostChord's Avatar
LostChord
Status: Offline
Brian
86 D110 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,313
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1of40 View Post
...,Right now the idle is rough with strong vibes when engine is cold....The road manners actually seem good.....
Sorry to hear that Clay - along the the lines of misery loving company, I'm experiencing the very same symptoms at the moment with our 200Tdi...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old May 5th, 2016, 04:10 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChord View Post
Sorry to hear that Clay - along the the lines of misery loving company, I'm experiencing the very same symptoms at the moment with our 200Tdi...
Damn, you have the flu too? Yeah, these engines can be much more complex than I ever realized. Many will disagree I'm sure. The lack of widespread skill and knowledge (even tools) is a factor that I'm concerned about. I fantasized of using this for trips and stuff that I can't imagine doing at this point. I'm about 20 years late to the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old May 5th, 2016, 04:18 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,250
Registry
I'm still confused about the lack of knowledge on the pumps. Every VW/Audi for 10 years. Every Cummins diesel for a decade. I can't imagine any diesel shop not having a huge amount of experience with them.

Robert Bosch VE-type Injection Pump
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old May 5th, 2016, 04:41 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
I'm still confused about the lack of knowledge on the pumps. Every VW/Audi for 10 years. Every Cummins diesel for a decade. I can't imagine any diesel shop not having a huge amount of experience with them.

Robert Bosch VE-type Injection Pump
Well, it's either me or the shops in this general area have moved on and work primarily on different set ups. The shops I have called say "we haven't worked on that stuff in ages". The shops here have more work than they can get to so they outright say they can't help. Same goes for driveline specialist. 40 million people in the DC area and one driveline shop. It's silly.

BTW, Blue Ridge Diesel just called me to confirm my injectors were a two-stage set up. They're 4 hours away and still believe in calling people back ASAP.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old May 5th, 2016, 05:07 PM
LostChord's Avatar
LostChord
Status: Offline
Brian
86 D110 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,313
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1of40 View Post
Damn, you have the flu too?
LOL...I thought the same thing. Once it warms up, it's good to go. But a cold start, not so much. It's a rough idle cold start up. At cold start, it gasps for life a couple of times, and then it begins a cyclical - almost rhythmic - surging and backing down pattern (with plenty of vibration during the surges) until it warms up.

Once warm, the idle seems rather normal to me and not too high, but I don't have a tach on it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old May 5th, 2016, 05:09 PM
Ren Ching's Avatar
Ren Ching
Status: Offline
Skinny Pete
'84 90 "Yamelo"/'88 RRC "Chewbacca"
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Downtown
Posts: 4,696
Registry
Clay don't buy anything.

I think you may need adjustments on the max fueling and/or smoke screw.

Also check to make sure there are no loose fittings like we talked about.

For all who are following the build:
The engine was running like dog shit when we first put it in. Sounded like injector nailing. Engine was shaking so bad you couldn't get a screwdriver on the idle speed screw and everything on the car was moving. The dipstick end was a blur.

So, then we got the injector tips replaced @ Blue Ridge and yes they are properly set up to do the two stage testing, shimming etc. After that it was much happier, IMO running normally @ 750rpm according to the crappy iPhone app. But the head gasket was leaking oil at the front right corner where the rockers' oil feed is.

So, we took the head off and re-checked its flatness and came up showing more warp than the first time so we got it skimmed. With all the valves lapped in the engine runs even smoother than before. But, now the idle won't go below 850 (based on ear and same crappy iPhone app)

IMO when I left Clay's, the engine was running fine and not rough at all. There is a slight but noticeable quieting after a minute or so once everything warms up. Which is normal for an old mechanical diesel IMO. I'm not sure what happened during the head gasket replacement that caused the idle speed to change, but I have some ideas where to start.

Going over in my head everything we did, I suspect that I may have left the bolts slightly loose on the intake manifold though I doubt that would cause any real issue. Also thinking it is possible that one of the IP fittings where the hard lines attach may have come loose in removing the lines. But, don't recall noticing that or seeing any leaks.

The only other thing I can come up with is that the engine is making better compression and that the max fueling is now too high due to someone turning it up to improve power on what was previously a pretty sad and worn-out motor.

I am surprised to hear that United Diesel doesn't have the adapter to check lift on a VE pump.

In any event, Clay, remember that this condition was an immediate change between how it ran before we did the head and how it ran after. Nothing changed during the two or three weeks your truck sat in the garage waiting for the head to come back.

The first thing is to re-check everything we did before you go messing around with stuff that we didn't change. I hope that makes sense.

Yes diesel is great when it is working. Diagnosis can be a bit mysterious if you are used to working with gas engines but not so difficult if you follow a logical path of steps.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
1988 RRC- "Chewbacca"
1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
1972 SIII 88"- "GreenHELL" now in NC
1988 90 "Eric the Half a Bee" half a truck, sold for parts
1991 RRC- never got a name- long since recycled
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old May 5th, 2016, 06:29 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Thank Dave, injection pipe fittings checked good and the manifold bolts checked good.

My queries today are for exploring options and more importantly how I'm going to learn this stuff. When I read the inner workings of the IP it is complex and it makes sense to me that the settings are checked.

As you know this engine has been beyond disappointing on a number of levels and for a number of reasons so my confidence in a major component that hasn't been looked at properly is ultra low.

I still have exhaust and temp sensor to address before this high idle issue.

Re United Diesel, that guy Scott is pretty cool. I called him yesterday and he was more than willing to listen to what the issue is even though his shop does not do this old stuff anymore. He asked me to send him the serial number on the IP which I did. He later emailed me about 4x with additional questions up until about 10pm. He's willing to help with additional testing but he doesn't have the dial gauge needed.

Things will be fine once I smarten up and start understanding this machine and I start trusting its not planning another curveball.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old May 5th, 2016, 07:02 PM
Uncle Douglas's Avatar
Uncle Douglas
Status: Offline
Doug Crowther
A defender in every driveway-motto
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gods Country- Central Virginia
Posts: 11,841
Registry
Out of curiosity, how far out is the idle stop screw on the pump (fender side of the throttle butterfly) ?
What you describe sounds like a fueling adjustment issue, ie not enough @ idle.

Had one last week that was changing hands between two forum members and when I drove it it felt anemic.
The idle stop on the butterfly was adjusted way out to get the truck to idle smoothly which it did, but overall the engine seemed weak.
It would pull a mountain in 5th when it left.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience,experience comes from bad judgement.

Dividing Creek Imports
Worldwide Vehicle Shipment and Importation Service
Restoration & Modification work


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

410.693.1391


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old May 5th, 2016, 07:32 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Out of curiosity, how far out is the idle stop screw on the pump (fender side of the throttle butterfly) ? What you describe sounds like a fueling adjustment issue, ie not enough @ idle. Had one last week that was changing hands between two forum members and when I drove it it felt anemic. The idle stop on the butterfly was adjusted way out to get the truck to idle smoothly which it did, but overall the engine seemed weak. It would pull a mountain in 5th when it left.
This?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-1928081551.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	466.8 KB
ID:	148884  
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old May 5th, 2016, 07:57 PM
Uncle Douglas's Avatar
Uncle Douglas
Status: Offline
Doug Crowther
A defender in every driveway-motto
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gods Country- Central Virginia
Posts: 11,841
Registry
Yes, that's turned pretty far out.

Is the tamper proof collar still on the max fuel screw on the back of the pump ?
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience,experience comes from bad judgement.

Dividing Creek Imports
Worldwide Vehicle Shipment and Importation Service
Restoration & Modification work


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

410.693.1391


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old May 5th, 2016, 08:30 PM
LostChord's Avatar
LostChord
Status: Offline
Brian
86 D110 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,313
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
....Had one last week that was changing hands between two forum members and when I drove it it felt anemic. The idle stop on the butterfly was adjusted way out to get the truck to idle smoothly which it did, but overall the engine seemed weak. It would pull a mountain in 5th when it left.
I need to come to God's country.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old May 5th, 2016, 08:45 PM
Uncle Douglas's Avatar
Uncle Douglas
Status: Offline
Doug Crowther
A defender in every driveway-motto
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gods Country- Central Virginia
Posts: 11,841
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChord View Post
I need to come to God's country.
Sure man, although yours needed more than tuning last I heard
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience,experience comes from bad judgement.

Dividing Creek Imports
Worldwide Vehicle Shipment and Importation Service
Restoration & Modification work


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

410.693.1391


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old May 5th, 2016, 09:14 PM
LostChord's Avatar
LostChord
Status: Offline
Brian
86 D110 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,313
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Sure man, although yours needed more than tuning last I heard
lol - that has been taken care of (famous last words)

i'll pm you

Clay - sorry I had a hijack in your Bosch VE thread
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Tags
bosch

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone have the turn signal Wagner/Bosch part number? arbik Defender Technical Discussions 5 February 2nd, 2008 10:33 AM
FS: D-90 Bosch AMR 4247 Alternator dzientek For Sale - Parts 1 February 8th, 2007 07:15 PM
Bosch 4.6 Engine FOR SALE RedRhinoProducts For Sale - Parts 8 February 21st, 2006 10:53 AM
GEMS or Bosch boxerhips Defender Technical Discussions 34 January 5th, 2006 05:25 PM
Bosch Alternator tmore Defender Technical Discussions 0 April 9th, 2004 11:46 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:44 PM.


Copyright