beginings of my clutch nightmare - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 10th, 2013, 10:30 PM
Tyler Wirken
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Tyler Wirken
1997 Defender 90 LE
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beginings of my clutch nightmare

Wanted to start a new thread on this issue.


My frustration with the clutch is growing daily.

Recap-6 months ago after the 110 conversion was finished clutch worked great. I never replaced any of the clutch components as it was fairly new I thought and worked fine when I took the 90 apart 5 years ago. So I took my chances. Starting to bite me in the ass now.

Clutch worked great when truck was done. Drove it for about 6 months then in the past month or so it started to slowly act up on me then finally making it very difficult to engage any gear. Would have to start the truck in the gear I wanted just to get it home. Shifting was possible just difficult. When I started it in gear the truck would also slightly jerk forward. So I suspected clutch was not disengaging far enough.

So I suspected the master cylinder was bad. Gummy seals etc.... Replaced with a new one from George as well as a slave rebuild kit and flex hose.

Also adjusted pedal per workshop manual just in case. My pedal was about 1/4" to high according the diagram. So I adjusted that and the pushrod having what I thought to be enough free play. Put it all back together and bled the system. Crappy pedal. Seemed like too much free play before engaging. Still would not disengage enough. When adjusting the pushrod free play the first time I noticed that there were two locknuts on the pushrod. Thinking that was not giving me enough free play I removed one of them. Come to find out it is supposed to have two lock nuts so I went back and put it like it was when I took it apart. Then used an ez-bleed to bleed the system and voila I had a great pedal. I did it twice and kept the bleed screw open till there were no air bubbles at all. Very solid pedal but no free play. Tested it and all seemed great. Every gear engaged pretty well so I thought I was good to go. Only thing alarming was that clutch seemed to engage when pedal was almost at end of travel- all the way disengaged. I just related that to readjusting the pedal height.

Today drove it and all worked pretty good this morning then all of a sudden after a 20 min test drive same damn problem as before all the work. Can not engage any gear without some trickery. Clutch when engaged seems fine. No slipage etc...

So now I am a bit lost. I have done exhaustive research not only here but also on-line. The only thing I can think of is the potential of more air in the system and a bubble made it's way down to the slave or something. It is just so inconsistent it is hard to pin down the problem.

Is it possible there could be to much travel in the master cylinder pushrod allowing air to sneak in slowly? All lines are checked and tight as well. I have read so many accounts of having trouble bleeding the system ranging from doing it on a hill to pumping the pedal like 150 times that it makes me wonder if I got it done properly. But with an ez-bleed I thought all was good.

The only other thing I can think of is the pressure plate. However, I am still suspecting I did not get the master adjustment proper as well. But it was working fine. I also read something where oil on the drive plate could cause this as well. Possible? My truck has been going through oil a lot recently making me believe it was burning it but it could be building up in the bell housing from the rear main I suppose. But then it is hard to believe the oil could get around the flywheel to saturate the clutch disk. If that is the case I would think the clutch would slip.

I am really at a loss here so any help you all can offer would be great. The guys in the other thread were crazy helpful in leading me to the master so thanks!

Tyler
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  #2  
Old March 10th, 2013, 11:30 PM
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chris
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usually pressure plate problems the clutch would engage right off the floor or a hard pedal , worn or contaminated disk would be up at the top of pedal travel... i would recheck everything first, fluid level any signs of leakage ect... but your talking the clutch was somewhat old when you put it in there and with all the slave problems caused more wear on it ....just my .02
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Old March 10th, 2013, 11:38 PM
Tyler Wirken
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Thanks Chris.

Good point about the pressure plate.

Yeah I hear ya. I have checked all the connections and such. No leaks anywhere. Thinking of making sure freeplay in the pedal is right on and then bleed again.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 12:05 AM
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Did you install the slave with the bleed screw on the correct side? I would try bleeding the old fashion way too. If you see any bubbles, you have found your issue. Are the connections tight on the new hose? Your description really sounds like hydraulic issues. Does it make it easier to shift if you pump multiple times on the clutch?
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  #5  
Old March 11th, 2013, 12:15 AM
Tyler Wirken
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Yup Ron bleed screw is on top. All connections are tight. I do not get any better results pumping the pedal multiple times.

I also read on-line it could be a warped disc as well. Which seems unlikely.
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  #6  
Old March 11th, 2013, 12:27 AM
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Andrew
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Engine oil on the disk makes it stick, I've been there done this dance before.
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  #7  
Old March 11th, 2013, 08:40 AM
Tyler Wirken
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So Andrew was your experience similar to mine where it was very inconsistent where it would be fine then not etc?? Was it the rear main seal leaking?

Thanks.
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  #8  
Old March 11th, 2013, 10:29 AM
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When I was driving mine to the shop when the throwout bearing failed I had similar symptoms. Mine would make a loud screeching noise with the clutch pedal depressed since the bearing was pretty much gone.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 10:49 AM
Tyler Wirken
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Was it hard to engage gears when sitting still and or moving?

Is that why you were driving to the shop to begin with or was it the throw out bearing? Also what was the result? Just replaced ghe bearing and disc?
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Old March 11th, 2013, 11:57 AM
kjva
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My clutch issue started with me telling one of my sons to push the pedal all the way down when he changed gear as the gears were grinding.
Like you it became more difficult to impossbile to change gear but it would drive when started in gear.
I inverted the slave cylinder, adjusted the pedal and bled for ever.
The culprit was a bad throw out bearing which lasted less than 1,000 miles
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  #11  
Old March 11th, 2013, 12:15 PM
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Start in gear and you should be able to shift without using the clutch pedal, if you absolutely must drive it. It can be a hassle in stop and go driving but it can be done.
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  #12  
Old March 11th, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Robert Davis
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A few suggestions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Wirken View Post
My frustration with the clutch is growing daily... I am really at a loss here so any help you all can offer would be great. The guys in the other thread were crazy helpful in leading me to the master so thanks!
What transmission and engine are you running?

My armchair quarterback view is that you have a non-hydraulic clutch issue and need to inspect inside the belhousing.

You could have a physical problem with the clutch disk or pressure plate.
I have seen where the plastic collar piece on the release bearing will get out of alignment with the fork and give similar problems. Have also had the same symptoms when one of the bolts that fasten the belhousing comes out and gets partially jammed to sometimes prevent the clutch fork from moving, but there is usually periodic noise when this happens because the bolt will sometimes rattle around inside the clutch area, but not always.

Hope this helps
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  #13  
Old March 11th, 2013, 01:00 PM
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John B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
Unfortunately the throwout bearings aren't very good quality. They should outlast the clutch disc, but they never do. Barrys throwout bearing was the culprit of his clutch woes as well. It was so gravely that wearing out the fingers on the pressure plate. http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...chmentid=50179 He kept the bearing and now wears his as a necklace ala Flavor Flav.

-Jeff
You can buy higher quality bearings. They are around $50. Worth it. with the TDIs, you should replace everything from the master through to the clutch when doing a clutch with OEM including a reinforced fork and HD throwout. Almost everything fails at some point.

edit: Oh, this is a V8? For some reason I was in TDI mode.... I'm not sure if they use the same TO bearing...
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  #14  
Old March 11th, 2013, 01:08 PM
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John B.
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OK, made by Rakeway, http://www.rakeway.co.uk/page28.html

They must all be the same, sold through Britpart, http://www.paddockspares.com/ftc5200...eavy-duty.html
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  #15  
Old March 11th, 2013, 01:39 PM
Tyler Wirken
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Thanks for all the help.

I am starting to think the same thing Robert.

It is a 4.0 V8 with an R380. I converted my 1997 to a manual about 10 odd years ago.

The clutch parts have been replaced since then just unsure how long ago.

There is no indication noise wise it is the throw out bearing. But you never know. I just really don't want to pull that tranny. Sucks.

Thanks
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  #16  
Old March 11th, 2013, 01:54 PM
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Robert Davis
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Pulling the transmission...

Yes it sounds like it's time to inspect inside the belhousing..
If you have a rear main seal leak, why not just pull the engine?
A lift sure helps with this job if it's the engine or the transmission that gets pulled.
Or
If you know Pendy (Pendy Imports), who is about 2 3/4 hours away.
Jim does excellent work and is very very knowledgeable and would have no problem fixing whatever is wrong with your rig.
He would be my choice if I couldn't do it myself.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #17  
Old March 11th, 2013, 02:05 PM
Tyler Wirken
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Tyler Wirken
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Not sure what is going on to be honest.

I have no problem doing this stuff as I built the truck just decided because of money etc... to wait on anything engine or tranny related.

I have pulled that transmission many times I just hate that job so was trying to not have to deal with it.

We shall see if it comes to that.
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  #18  
Old March 11th, 2013, 07:17 PM
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Mine was the rear main seal on a 2.5P. The clutch became increasingly difficult and intermittent to release over time to the point that I could not release it at all. The pedal always felt normal. I drove it for a couple of months by shifting with engine speed matching then finally fixed it.
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  #19  
Old March 24th, 2013, 09:45 AM
Tyler Wirken
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Finally got around to tearing it apart yesterday. One of the springs on the disc broke. Thus getting lodged in the pressure plate fingers as well as a piece of spring damaging the actual disc. So a double whammy it appears. So after replacing disc, pressure plate and throw out. Daring I'm gonna have an entire new cultch system. Also going to put in a new rear main and cross seals. Crappy job but it will be nice when done.
I will upload photos later.
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  #20  
Old March 24th, 2013, 09:58 AM
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Make sure you get that flywheel resurfaced ......
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