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  #41  
Old June 25th, 2012, 06:49 PM
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  #42  
Old June 26th, 2012, 01:40 AM
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Ian Gregory
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Josh,

I would double check the size of bolts you have on there now. You say yours are 17mm? That would be an M10 which is too small. All the bumper bolts I have run across on LRs here in the US are M12 which are 19mm. Mine on the 90 are M12x120mm. You could use a 1/2" maybe (its a fraction bigger and may not fit without opening up the holes slightly) but for length you'll need to check depth as 120mm is about 4-3/4". 4" is probably too short and 5" too long. 4-1/2" may work if you can get one. M12x120 though is a pretty common size even here in the US. I get them at the local ACE hardware.

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  #43  
Old June 26th, 2012, 07:51 AM
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I am pretty sure the replacement bolts I got from Paddock were M10x130 and work fine with the nut plates I also got from them. I am gauging the size from memory as the heads are 17mm but suppose it is possible it is a purpose built bolt with a non-standard size head. Damn it, now I may actually have to pull one!
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  #44  
Old June 26th, 2012, 08:16 AM
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Just had Charles check his and they have 17mm head and are about 4.5" long
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  #45  
Old June 26th, 2012, 09:31 AM
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The bolts that came out of there were Atlas branded class 8.8 17mm and roughly 5 3/8" in length partially threaded, but they were definitely longer than they needed to be.
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  #46  
Old June 26th, 2012, 09:42 AM
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Ian, curious why you would believe the M10 bolts would be insignificant for the mounting of the bumper? I agree that if you can go bigger it is not a bad thing but at some point it becomes overkill. While Ed Kang and I were trying to fit his newly constructed bumper over the weekend, he had planned to use 1/2" bolts but found that they would not fit through the frame holes.
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  #47  
Old June 26th, 2012, 11:16 AM
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So I suck at this ordering bolts online. I'm used to just going to the store and matching them up there.

I'm trying to use the Ultra Corrosion-Resistant Coated High-Strength Steel bolts McMaster sells on their site, but if I want under a 1/2" Diameter, the only head size option I have is a 5/8" (basically a 16mm equivalent) which I think is too small. In the 1/2" Diameter I can get a 3/4" head but it'll require drilling...

In a 4.5" length then, they have 91286A289 which is a Grade 8 Coated Alloy Steel 5/8" Hex Head Cap Screw, 7/16"-14 Thread
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  #48  
Old June 26th, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Josh, you used a 17mm SOCKET to get them out.
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  #49  
Old June 26th, 2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefhuf View Post
Ian, curious why you would believe the M10 bolts would be insignificant for the mounting of the bumper? I agree that if you can go bigger it is not a bad thing but at some point it becomes overkill. While Ed Kang and I were trying to fit his newly constructed bumper over the weekend, he had planned to use 1/2" bolts but found that they would not fit through the frame holes.


Itís not that I am trying to go bigger, those are what is in there to begin with and what fits the holes properly. When I was putting new bolts on one of my D1s I got 1/2" instead of M12. I had to ream out about half the holes in the frame and all the holes in the bumper to get them to fit. The difference was very slight but just enough to need 'adjustment'. Itís more the alignment of the holes between the bumper and the frame than the individual hole sizes themselves. You can often get a 1/2" through the hole but not when the 2 parts are together as the combined holes don't always line up exactly.

On an off-road bumper that I plan to use as a recovery and or winch mount point I want the strongest connection between the frame and the bumper I can get. Itís not about the strength difference between an M10 and an M12 itís about the fit. An M10 bolt in an M12 hole can allow the 2 parts to move if the bolt loosens or the shock load is high enough. Over time that can damage the bolt and or elongate the hole. That will eventually weaken the set up IMHO.

Ian
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  #50  
Old June 26th, 2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post

Itís not that I am trying to go bigger, those are what is in there to begin with and what fits the holes properly. When I was putting new bolts on one of my D1s I got 1/2" instead of M12. I had to ream out about half the holes in the frame and all the holes in the bumper to get them to fit. The difference was very slight but just enough to need 'adjustment'. Itís more the alignment of the holes between the bumper and the frame than the individual hole sizes themselves. You can often get a 1/2" through the hole but not when the 2 parts are together as the combined holes don't always line up exactly.

On an off-road bumper that I plan to use as a recovery and or winch mount point I want the strongest connection between the frame and the bumper I can get. Itís not about the strength difference between an M10 and an M12 itís about the fit. An M10 bolt in an M12 hole can allow the 2 parts to move if the bolt loosens or the shock load is high enough. Over time that can damage the bolt and or elongate the hole. That will eventually weaken the set up IMHO.

Ian
That makes sense and I agree. Before I thought you were referring to the overall bolt strength making the M10 a bad choice but do agree that, if you can make them fit, the larger M12 is a better choice.
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  #51  
Old June 26th, 2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
Josh, you used a 17mm SOCKET to get them out.
Yup, I remember that part - what I'm trying to figure out, is that the bolt we talked about gettig is only available in SAE and even your chart doesn't have 17mm on there. Plus, apparently 1/2" diameter bolt will not fit without additional drilling, so the only one below it is the one I linked above... I'm not sure why this is so hard but it is. Can someone just confirm the bolt I referenced above is ideal or not?
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  #52  
Old June 26th, 2012, 02:20 PM
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I would measure the holes and get the bolt that fits. If you have captive nut plates on the new bumper then you're going to have to get whatever size the nuts are of course.

Edit - Jeff put it better.
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  #53  
Old June 26th, 2012, 02:30 PM
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There is no captive nut plate in the RockWare.

I'm trying to learn a thing or two here in the process (for the next time I have to buy bolts online) - I think I figured it out (above) I just wanted to confirm if I had done it right or not. The selection at the local hardware store here in NYC is not as vast as you guys probably have outside of this area, and my truck is garaged in a different state, so it's not as easy as going downstairs and pulling these off the frame. I have one bolt with me (pictured above with the ruler) that I'm trying to match up - I do not know if it was the ideal size or not to begin with.
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  #54  
Old June 26th, 2012, 02:47 PM
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It’s not the size of the bolt you have that matters in this case as there is a question as to the right size. You need to measure the size of the holes in the bumper and the frame to determine the size that best fits. Diameter and length, you already know the grade. When you know that, selecting the bolt should be easy. Doesn’t matter if you are buying them from a store or online, you need the size. If you use a store then you can test it then and there to find the size as Jeff suggested. If you go online then it’s out with the trusty measuring device. Since your truck is not with you then you are either going to have to wait until you can get to it and measure or buy a selection.

You have a winch, you go off-road and you use the bumper as a recovery point. You want the closest fit you can get to the combined hole size between the holes in the bumper and the frame.

Very excessive example but the attached is what is left of a bolt on my 94 that was holding on the bumper. We had to cut the head off to get the bumper off. The weight of the bumper in transport did that and snapped the other one leaving the bumper hanging. This happened because the bumper was able to move in relation to the frame (it wasn’t designed to fit a defender and was VERY heavy). The weight of the bumper alone over a few days did the rest. Put this in context with the loads you put on your bumper mounts when you either hit something, use your winch or pull on it.
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  #55  
Old June 26th, 2012, 03:11 PM
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I appreciate the help. I'm just frustrated with how many ways there are to reference basically the same exact bolt, and the tolerances for variance between each method. It's making my head spin.

Just for this bolt I've had to remember M8, M10, or M12 as it relates to mm head size 16-19mm and how that translates into SAE head sizes 5/8" and up, while also maintiaining grade 8+ (which was what I used to think M8 stood for) for strength, while ensuring it's greater in length than 4.5" or roughly 120m, and trying to also ensure that the diameter of the bolt does not exceed what is currently drilled in the frame as that would require additional drilling, while also not going any thinner than the current diameter. While also trying to ensure that the partial threading is long enough that the nut and washer can get good and snug up on the frame. Oh, and making sure that this is all achieved on a bolt that is resistant enough to corrosion that I'm not doing this all again in a few months.

Haha what a pain in the ass.
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  #56  
Old June 26th, 2012, 03:18 PM
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On the 120mm ones on mine there are about 15mm or so of exposed threads below the nut if that helps you?

Those particular bolts on mine at the moment came out of a spare ARB bumper fitting kit that came with a D1 ARB bumper. They were a drop in fit on my 90.

YMMV

Ian
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  #57  
Old June 26th, 2012, 03:30 PM
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I may run to pepboys after work and get some bolts for mine. i'll measure them. im thinking 5/8ths
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  #58  
Old June 26th, 2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
I may run to pepboys after work and get some bolts for mine. i'll measure them. im thinking 5/8ths
OK yeah 5/8ths was what I had figured, that I was trying to get confirmation on if I had done all the conversions right.

Just so that people don't think I'm BS'ing about NYC not having everything, here's what a search for Pep Boys brings up. Notice no pings in NYC.
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  #59  
Old June 26th, 2012, 03:48 PM
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Better to use ACE Hardware then....
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  #60  
Old June 26th, 2012, 04:03 PM
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Better to use ACE Hardware then....
Those are just Ace-affiliates and rarely like the ACE stores you and I know eveywhere else. In NYC they're basically just locksmiths and plumbing supplies, if they're even in business at all. Here's the one that was listed closest to me.

It won't hurt to give them a try though.
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