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  #1  
Old March 29th, 2011, 09:05 PM
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Clark Bowen
1969 Series 2a/OM617 Bugeye 88"
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Anyone still running a Rimmer supercharger

if so, how have you modified the ECU to compensate for running lean?
Did you also add bigger injectors and a higher rate fuel pump?
How about a rich/lean gauge?
I just toasted Art Vigil's supercharged RRC after 125,000 miles with a supercharger. I suspect my heavy foot, 9,000 feet and detonation that I couldn't hear did it in. Actually drove it 250 miles on 5 or 6 cylinders and burned 6 gallons of oil. But I made it to Southwest Rovers and then ordered a 4.2 from Roverland Parts. 1995. With 68,000 miles. Loved the supercharger so I like to add it to the 4.2. It is an Eaton M62.
.
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  #2  
Old March 29th, 2011, 11:10 PM
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JORGE ESPINOZA
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Just had mine rebuilt and will be installed this weekend . I dealt with this rebuilder http://www.embreemachine.com/ instead of Magnuson http://www.magnusonproducts.com/ . I used Magnuson the last time and the supercharger last about 4 years . I enjoy doing highway speeds and not struggling up hills as I sometimes drive long distance to offroad . I have a MF2 that manages the 9th injector http://www.interex.co.uk/motorsport/...uct.php?pid=39 by adjusting the gas input .
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Old March 30th, 2011, 08:05 AM
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Bill Adams
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Not sure how that truck was set up, but the 1995 EFI is a rather "stupid" system (as opposed to a "smart" system). It is mass air/batch fire. That means that the injector bandwidth (duration of the injection event) is based on how much air is being sucked in. You're in luck because the ECU really doesn't need any tweaking, it will simply adjust to the increase in airflow, which with that small blower, ain't much. It's a "hot wire" type mass air sensor in that there is a heated wire that is stretched across the incoming air flow. The amount of electrical energy needed to keep the wire at it's set temperature is translated into a variable voltage that is sent to the ECU. The engine ECU opens all the right side injectors at the same time, then all the left side and so on for a total of eight events per cycle (two complete revolutions), thus they fire in "batches". Also known as "bank fire". With that in mind, it is pretty easy to see that once you get above a certain RPM, the injectors are just open all the time. So at some point the engine is going to run out of gas, or rather the ECU will not be able to maintain a 14.7:1 air fuel mixture because the injectors are not flowing enough fuel. Will this happen to your engine with stock injectors ? Maybe. If you are a heavy footed driver and floor it going up hills, or tow a boat, or consistently stress the engine in a similar way then maybe you should go to 24lb injectors. It's hard to say since only dyno testing will answer that definitively.

Look on FleaBay and search for Mustang injectors and you'll get tons of hits. 1986-1993 are the ones you want.

You don't need a rich lean gauge (the ECU does that) or a higher rate fuel pump as the one in there is easily up to the task of running a big block. I also don't believe there was detonation if the timing was set properly.
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  #4  
Old March 30th, 2011, 08:13 AM
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Dave C
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Best thing you could do to avoid melting pistons is to fit an aftermarket ECU. Extra 'single' injectors, will by virtue of their position never always supply the correct amount of extra fuel to EVERY cylinder. If you are pre OBD2, there is really no reason to not do this - you'll be able to make more power, partly because you'll be confident that you can! Even if you wanted to keep the stock ECU in place for emissions, you could probably do this reasonably easilly as well - just leave the aftermarket ECU to control the sparks and fuel, and leave the Rover ECU to 'think' it is still in charge...

14.7 is not enough for forced induction - you need to be a lot richer than that... think 12.5 as a minimum - or more likely a little richer to benefit from cylinder cooling (i assume these supercharger setups aren't chargecooled)? AFR's of 11:1 under the area of peak torque might not even be out of the question - it just depends on the dyno findings (or your 'seat of the pants' tuning)...

A wideband (ideally one in each downpipe) is cheap insurance ($150 each for AEM) against problems and will show WAY more than a narrow-band OEM sensor ever will, because they are only really accurate in the 14.7 range, and give spurious readings above and below this...
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Old March 30th, 2011, 12:02 PM
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Clark Bowen
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This has been very helpful and re-enthused me on the sc.

Jorge....is yours an Eaton or did you add the 9th injector?

2batsea.... Very interesting. Do you know any dyno shops on the West Coast who are competent at installing and tuning a sc?
Your explanation of batch fire sounds like a very inefficient and wasteful system. Do the crank-fired systems treat each injector individually?

TurboDave...any thoughts on the best aftermarket ECU to work with the Eaton?
The AEM sideband sounds very good. Does anyone make a programmable unit with an LED instead of a gauge. I'm short on space in the soft-dash 1995. If it was programmable, the dyno tuner could find the right AFR and set the LEDs to go off if the desired range was exceeded. Right?

Clark

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  #6  
Old March 30th, 2011, 12:24 PM
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Tony Sims
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Megasquirt it! Lots of support on the web for Rover V8's.
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Old March 30th, 2011, 01:25 PM
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Dave C
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Megasquirt is definately the cheapest option. Whether it's the best is your choice... you have many aftermarket ECU's to choose from - think of them as like a microwave - they all will do the same basic stuff, and do it well - but if you program them wrong, you mess up your dinner. Different models and price points have different bells and whistles, but all still rely on the correct inputs to deliver the goods. The MS is just a microwave you built yourself!


http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/

------ Follow up post added March 30th, 2011 01:32 PM ------

I recall seeing one of the widebands as having a digital output (only) but don't recall which it is?
The AEM is a 2" gauge. these are the best value/$ IMO.
The FAST unit is available in a dual-channel system (in a sinlge and is pretty good and compact. I used to be able to recomend innovate, but they have sooooooo many problems with their latest release, it is buyer-beware unfortunately.

------ Follow up post added March 30th, 2011 01:37 PM ------

Google TechEdge or AFX widebands for a digital only display option. I recall hearing good things about techedge, but no feedback on the AFX.
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  #8  
Old March 30th, 2011, 03:39 PM
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Bill Adams
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There is so much aftermarket stuff out there that you may end up more confused than enlightened. If it were me, I'd just put it back to stock and run it like that.
Batch fire works just fine it isn't any more wasteful than anything else. Millions of cars have it. Individually fired injectors aren't any better, unless you can put an O2 sensor on each cylinder.
I live in the DC area so I can't point you to any west coast shops.

As the others have said if you want to supercharge it plan on a whole new engine management system as the 14CUX just ain't up to it. Will probably cost at least as much as you spent to buy the thing. I would guesstimate at least $5-6000 to do it properly. I have a couple extra Megasquirts laying around that I'll probably never use...already built and ready to go.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
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  #9  
Old March 30th, 2011, 05:09 PM
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Wow... can't believe I'm going to say this. But why a supercharger? There is no replacement for displacement. 502 crate motor works very well for this.

WTF?....I think Bill is rubbing off on me....



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  #10  
Old March 30th, 2011, 09:46 PM
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Clark Bowen
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Why a supercharger.......
I've had 9 or 10 RRCs and always felt wanting for power. Before I managed to destroy the 3.9 in Art's RRC, I really enjoyed the smooth power delivery.
Second reason is that that motor had about 125,000miles with the sc. Pretty impressive until I came along.
Third reason is that I have a good working Eaton M62 from the destroyed motor.
Fourth reason is that I think having the wideband O2 gauges will lessen the likelihood of toasting the replacement motor.
On the other side, Rob at Southwest Rovers thinks they are a big mistake and I respect his opinion - although I may ignore it
My concern is that a 4.2 may be too big for the Eaton. They are rated for up to 4.0 liters.
This may be a dumb idea, but then if we were all smart we wouldn't drive British cars anyway.

Clark

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------ Follow up post added March 30th, 2011 05:54 PM ------

Bill...........

On the Megasquirt:

How reliable are they?
Are yours plug and play or do I need to tech-out to learn and program them? I suck at reading, understanding and implementing directions? I've looked at their website and I'm not very clear about how they work.
Would the MS you have take care of all the ECU chores or is it used in conjunction with the existing RRC one?
And my favorite question; how much are they?

Clark

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  #11  
Old March 31st, 2011, 05:12 AM
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Tony Sims
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Megasquirt is the product of an open source user community. It can be done anywhere from build it yourself to fully assembled and installed. The easiest way to use it on a Rover used to be with Ford EDIS, which is a wasted spark distributorless ignition you can buy out of a junkyard for cheap. MS controls the fueling via a MAP sensor and spark with the EDIS. I've been away from the MS community for a while, as real diesels don't have ECU's... but I'd bet by now there's a fully integrated fuel and ignition solution.

It's very programmable, and popular with people running turbos and blowers because it lets you customize the map for any condit5ions, and you can even run dual maps, so you have a profile that passes emissions testing with flying colors and another that passes everything but gas stations.

MS can be very inexpensive if you can build and tune it yourself. Even if you have to pay for building and tuning it is probably still cheaper than a retail unit. Nothing is really "plug and play", you'll be replacing the entire engine management system, and may need dyno time to properly tune.
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[appropriated from Ren Ching] Most faults can usually be traced to the badge on the grill.
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  #12  
Old March 31st, 2011, 08:43 AM
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Bill Adams
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The two I have are fuel only meaning that they take injector impulse timing off the coil. You can leave it at that or go all in and use it as a complete engine management system. For your rig you will want to pop the $90 (in addition to buying mine, which by the way, I know works!) for the V2 daughter card that plugs into the slot where the CPU goes. The V2 card has a faster chip as well as everything to drive the spark and timing, stepper motor, cooling fan, blah blah blah...My MS is built with all this circuitry, but is not needed in fuel only mode. I put it in cuz it came in the kit so I figured I might as well assemble the whole shebang.
The only mods you need to do to this is setting a couple jumpers. It has the proper MAP sensor to run up to 21 lbs boost. The Megamanual covers boost quite well and there is plenty of support on the web for this.

The other thing that's a bit more tricky is to either cut out the old ECU connector or figure out a way to otherwise integrate the Megasquirt into the vehicle. If I were going to do it I'd desolder the connector from the PCB on a dead 14CUX ECU and make an adapter that would let me plug the MS's DB37 into it. I hate the thought of making it so that I couldn't just put the old 14CUX box back in.
The neat thing about the MS is that YOU do all the tuning. Some people hate the idea of doing that themselves and for them there are other directions to go, so you should be aware that it's not a plug and play solution. It will be an ongoing thing and you can get a little dweeby driving around watching the laptop and trying different adjustments. You can even save programs for different situations. Load up your "towing" or "racer boy" or "max road trip" programs for power, speed or efficiency. Takes only a few seconds with the laptop.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
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  #13  
Old March 31st, 2011, 08:45 AM
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kevin
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If you don't mind more compexity, why not a complete AJ26S motor.
If you just want a little more power, why supercharge the Rover v-8 when so many performance enhancements can be done without it. Just look at TVR.
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Old March 31st, 2011, 09:13 AM
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The Megasquirt III is available from DIY auto tune. This is an even bigger add on card that gives you sequential fuel injection for up to 8 cylinders, as well as USB connectivity, up to 6 relay drivers, an SD card slot. Pretty darn cool.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
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Old March 31st, 2011, 10:17 AM
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Clark Bowen
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Looks like a bigger can of worms than I'm interested in. Jaguar sc motor - very interesting, but way beyond my talents. If there was a ECU replacement, plug and play, it would be what fits my abilities.
Back to the most important point (to me); if it worked for 125,000 miles, why fix it? Why not monitor the exhaust gases with a wideband O2 sensor/gauge, maybe add bigger injectors and drive it?

Clark
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Old March 31st, 2011, 03:29 PM
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Why not indeed? Like you said, it has been working.

Bigger injectors will not make much difference unless the ECU will drive them to inject more. The 14CUX is simple, but it is closed loop, and so it will read the exhaust gases and try to stay stoichiometric. I don't know how much headroom the Rover Injectors have, but it's probably enough to keep up with the blower.

I've seen a very simple WOT enrichment setup using a Bosch cold start injector wired to a switch on the throttle body. You adjust the switch to energize the cold start injector at some point near WOT, and you get a big squirt of extra fuel. If you wanted to trick the 14CUX, you could also use the signal to kill the O2 sensor feed, so it didn't lean out the mix. Of course, it would throw a code and fire up the CEL every time you floor it...
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[appropriated from Ren Ching] Most faults can usually be traced to the badge on the grill.
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Old March 31st, 2011, 04:24 PM
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Clark Bowen
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Thanks for the advice.
This seems like the road I'll go down for now.
MaybeI'll get more sophisticated later.
I also thought an EGT gauge on number 1 and number 8 cylinders would be a good idea. I have one on my D90 with a 300 TDI and it keeps my heavy foot in check.
I picked those two cylinders because they were the first to eat their plugs and they looked the worst.

Clark
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Old April 1st, 2011, 08:28 AM
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EGT monitoring is not - IMO - going to tell you much at all with a relativly low-stressed supercharged motor. A wideband in each down-pipe will however... I wouldn't run any forced-induction car without one personally (or in this case, two!)

At this mileage, unless swapping in a new set of injectors, I'd also get your current ones cleaned and flow-measured - or at least flow measured. Number them yourselves by scribing a number into the paint, or the plastic housing before sending them away.
This way, you know they are all working properly, and if some are 5% more than others, you can stick these in the known weaker locations.

Monitoring spark plugs is always a good reliable way of checking long-tem problems, but my concern with any 'piggyback' unit is knowing that they are pulsing once every 90-crank degrees. Then there is the problem of the different lengths the extra fuel has to be carried (assuming it is firing every 90 degree of crank rotation) made more confusing by the change of velocity of the air flowing over the injector with respect to rpm - which means the cylinders furthest from the injector (especially #8 which follows cylinders 2 & 1) now has to have sufficient opportunity to get the fuel/air mix from the injector to travel to the other end of the plenum before #4 starts demanding the extra fuel.

I don't know where the 9th injector is on this setup, but I'd mount it as close to the entry to the plenum as possible, pointing inside the plenum, rather than at 90-degrees to the entry pipe. I'd also look at using a modern injetor with a very, very small dead-time. The siemens motortron injectors are the fastest responding units out there, and have a nice spray.
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Old April 1st, 2011, 09:47 AM
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Dave, not sure what you're on about with injectors and distance? GEMS uses common rail, so there is an injector for each cylinder and the fuel is always available at the injector. The only variance in fueling by cylinder would be related to the individual injector, which as you note might vary based on the condition of the injector. Likewise, the common plenum and individual intake stacks eliminates most or any variance in availability of air into the cylinders.

As I noted in my comments above, a 9th injector won't really work with GEMS, as it will just lean out the mix if it reads extra richness in the exhaust.

Agree on EGT with a blower, not much value. More important on a turbo.
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[appropriated from Ren Ching] Most faults can usually be traced to the badge on the grill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
This is straight out of the Manual for Build Builders.
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1984 110 "Smokey" (sold)
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  #20  
Old April 1st, 2011, 11:22 AM
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Clark Bowen
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Tony....

It isn't a GEMS system. It runs on a 14 CUX and is a Classic, not a P38 vehicle. If it matters.

------ Follow up post added April 1st, 2011 08:28 AM ------

Dave...

This unit doesn't have a 9th injector.
When I starting dropping cylinders, number 8 had the worst looking plug, but number 1 dropped out first.
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