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  #21  
Old July 12th, 2006, 11:50 PM
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Ok will check the forum on oil lines.

I have a fire extinguisher strapped to the interior roll cage. Plastic pin type. After reading your post, I'm getting a new one.
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  #22  
Old July 13th, 2006, 12:38 AM
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  #23  
Old July 13th, 2006, 07:01 AM
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[QUOTE=thewap]Any ideas on upgrading the oil lines?

Most of the trucks I have seen that burned (including Rangies and Discos with the 3.9) have either had the original lines (which have to be at least 12 years old) or very poorly installed replacements ( run yuor nice new oil line 1" away from the exhaust manifold and see what happens). Replace them when you do the top end of the motor at 100-125K miles and install them correctly and all should be fine.

Engine oil burns very well.......I've watched it.
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  #24  
Old July 13th, 2006, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarchand
This wasn't a truck you guys worked on was it?
Nope. Never seen that one. Guy just called looking for some advice.

Upgrading the oil lines to something better is wise. If you can't do that new ones are good. The original lines were installed in 1992 and its good to replace them.

Any good local hydraulic shop can make excellent new SS lines out of your old units. no need for fancy tricks (unless you want fancy tricks).



Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
I believe it to be oil cooler lines as freon is not that flamable, but then again neither is oil.
It must have something to do with a split oil cooler line misting oil onto the manifold to then create a fire.
I don't know for sure, but new or upgraded oil cooler lines on a V8 110 would be highly suggested.
Yeah Matt... I know it burns... durrrrrrrr. Hence my post above.
If you pour a quart of oil on a hot exhaust manifold it will not ignite. If you think it will come to the shop and I'll run my truck for an hour and then dump a quart on the RH manifold for you.

In a furnce it will burn with tons of heat and air. Lots of shops burn used oil. Hell, we used to dump old 90 weight it our old furnce to heat the shop.

What I am talking about is not if it will burn or not. I am talking about the fires related to Defender 110s, not the physics of oil.

To me it just seems like too odd of a situation for all these cars to have the exact same fire. Some with new lines, some with original. To say that the split in the line happens in the perfect place to perfectly atomize the oil to the perfect place on the exhaust maniold every time is a little too "easy" for me to believe.
If that is so easy for you to swallow then why is there never a case of a 110 that has a broken or leaking oil cooler line that did not catch fire??
I've worked on more NAS 110s for over a decade and I have seen a lot of fire damaged cars come in, but still have never seen a split (or about to split) oil cooler line. Nor have I seen a split, or about to split AC line. I've seen some old looking ones that needed replacing, but I've never been able to bend an old take out line and cause it to break or split.

Wouldn't at least one person be driving a short enough distance to then shut down the 110 and see a leak underneath?? Or wouldn't one truck come in just about to catch fire?? Or wouldn't one truck have a split line but just in a weird place so that it leaked like a stuck pig but did not catch fire??

What about brand new oil lines? I've seen cars where the lines were new Genuine units and routed correctly and those went up as well, and one in a span where the engine temp wouldn't have been anywhere near hot enough to ignite oil from "heat" without open flame.

You guys are welcome to say you know exactly what it is... I still say I'm not exactly sure, but I know new oil lines are cheap insurance. Some do go up from oil lines, but I just think there gotta be more too it.

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  #25  
Old July 13th, 2006, 12:15 PM
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George Kase
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Anyone know if this is also a ROW/300Tdi issue? I did the new lines on my old NAS V8 and am wondering if I should do stainless braided on my 300Tdi install?
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  #26  
Old July 13th, 2006, 01:04 PM
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J. Michael McCaig
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I was standing next to a D90 which had a fire caused by the power stering reservior cap vent. The small hole in the cap was aimed right at the exhaust manifold. Wheels were turned to full lock and the pressure relief opened and dumped a lot of oil back to the reservoir which overflowed or vented. Flamed up really fast but when the driver let go of the wheel to reach for the fire extinguisher it went out. A second or two more and rubber would have caught fire. It was all on the right side of the engine and flames were as far back as the fuel lines.
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  #27  
Old July 13th, 2006, 01:51 PM
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It's interesting that you witnessed the cause of that fire being the steering reservoir vent cap venting when overpressuring the power steering pump. Could this be the missing link in the D110 /D90 sudden fire in the right hand side of the engine compartment? . It sounds kind of more plausible than a failing oil cooler line atomizing oil in the right direction on the manifold.
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  #28  
Old July 13th, 2006, 02:26 PM
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Dennis Yard
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All,
This is not a 110 unique issue.
Three weeks ago on our club caravan to Big Bear, one 90 ST started smoking and then spewing oil on I-215 in Perris. After fixing the split oil line and refilling with oli, we took off, but it happened again a little down the road dropping flaming gobs of oil. A second repair was completely successful and the truck stayed together for a weekend of wheeling.

I expect to replace my 110 oil lines soon with something like metal braid covered lines.

Dennis Yard
LR Club of San Diego
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  #29  
Old July 13th, 2006, 03:10 PM
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I can say with absolute certaintly that a split oil cooler line caused a fire in my 90. My wife was in line to enter a military installation and the truck started smoking and she immediately pulled off to the side and shut off the truck. The oil which had sprayed out burned off and everything returned to normal but oil continued to hemorage onto the ground, but it didnt spew out under pressure.

I replaced the oil lines and everything was great. They was clearly a 1 inch split lengthwise along the hose near the fitting on the motor. I would love to be able to provide physical evidence, but I gave the hoses away to a guy who wanted to rebuild them, though I still have the burn marks on the bottom of my hood.
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  #30  
Old July 13th, 2006, 03:16 PM
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This thread is starting to freak me out..
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  #31  
Old July 13th, 2006, 03:30 PM
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Actually, a few guys here have also had failed oil lines that did not cause fires. If I have time to dig through the forums tonight at work, I'll try to find some of the names and also to see what the failure was like. I am also not 100% sure that it is the oil lines causing all of the fires, but they are something that a lot of folks have had issues with over time. Even if they aren't the cause of the underhood fires, they are still something that gets overlooked by quite a lot of folks and should be maintained.

One thing that really gets to me though is the fact that there are a high percentage of trucks that have burned. They all start in the same area, and most likely are caused by the same source or at least a VERY limited number of sources. But as far as I know it's only been looked into by some of the independant repair shops and some of the more technically minded owners. I still can't believe that this isn't getting outside attention like the Ford Pinto or Chevy pickups were. This may not be a flaw in the gas tank, but it is still a rolling fireball due to a technical defect. And this one doesn't require a collision in a specific spot to have it happen. This needs more technical and forensic inspection that I don't think any of us can do.

However, one other possibility to look at is the hood release cable. It's not secured very well from the factory, and mine had shaken loose once and melted against the exhaust manifold. Since it is a semi-rigid piece, if that happens it will basically stay pressed against the exhaust manifold until all the plastic either melts off or catches fire.

-Hans
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  #32  
Old July 13th, 2006, 03:53 PM
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Thanks for the info guys.
Like I said, I only get to see what happens after... never seen a during. Nice to hear some durring stories (although I don't wish it on anyone).

My guess has always been oil cooler lines but I never thought about a PS fluid issue that is interesting. Unless over full or maybe tipping off road why would the PS system vent?

We asked LRNA about it when a customer who we did a 110 for had his go up in flames. As expected they say the problem does not exist and "have never heard of an NAS Defender catching fire."

I know of 2 110s that burned right after a trip to Jiffy Lube type places. Don't know if it is related.

bad thing is I don't think you can tell when a line will go. We did a 110 in 2000 and it was always garaged with new lines. Owned by a guy in CO, no issues he put about 9000 miles on. Then owned by a guy here in ME that basically parked it in his garage next to his Ferrari (climate controlled). Maybe put 500 miles on it. Then sold to a guy in NY and it burnt the day he took delivery. Maybe 11,000 miles and 5 years on new lines.

Today we did lines on a 86000 mile 110 with original lines from 1992. For fun I hooked the old ones up to our compressor. They held 100 psi without issue. Bent them over backwards, no stress cracks, no issues.

Who knows... not me.


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  #33  
Old July 13th, 2006, 03:59 PM
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I still have my split hose....small 1/4" long split near the lower metal pipe coming off of the radiator, perfectly aimed to spray oil on the exhaust manifold...I'm sure the discharge air from the fan helped with delivery and atomization. I had driven about 2 miles and was accelerating onto the freeway when I smelled oil burning & saw smoke. I shut down & pulled over & grabbed the fire extinguisher. Luckily it hadn't ignited yet. I was able to remove the oil cooler adapter and reinstall the filter and clean up the mess on the side of the road. Every time I take that onramp I see the oil stain on the asphalt and I realize how close I came to losing my Defender.
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  #34  
Old July 13th, 2006, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gkase
Anyone know if this is also a ROW/300Tdi issue? I did the new lines on my old NAS V8 and am wondering if I should do stainless braided on my 300Tdi install?

I don't believe this happens on Tdis as the oil cooler lines are on the other side of the engine bay from the exhaust manifold. No heat source if the line blows (and the heat source is likely what makes the line blow in the first place).

I think it is a V8 issue.

I also think the temp gauge in the 110 causes some owners to think their 110 runs cool. The "signal conditioner" in the temp gauge circuit won't let the real coolant temps be seen so in some of these cases the engine might have been REALLY hot and had some effect on the oil cooler line near the RH manifold.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
I still have my split hose....small 1/4" long split near the lower metal pipe coming off of the radiator, perfectly aimed to spray oil on the exhaust manifold...I'm sure the discharge air from the fan helped with delivery and atomization. I had driven about 2 miles and was accelerating onto the freeway when I smelled oil burning & saw smoke. I shut down & pulled over & grabbed the fire extinguisher. Luckily it hadn't ignited yet. I was able to remove the oil cooler adapter and reinstall the filter and clean up the mess on the side of the road. Every time I take that onramp I see the oil stain on the asphalt and I realize how close I came to losing my Defender.
Yikes.
Hence the reason we now cover the oil lines from end to end in a thermo-wrap sleeve. That way if it does burst the oil gets directed down the sleeve and out the botton, and hopefully not at the engine. I think it also helps with keeping the oil lines from the heat as well.

Its just stuff we get from JEGS, cheap insurance... especially since we all know 110s and 90 go up... but owners like to blame repair shops for this, even though I consider it a design flaw.
Its always the "last guy that worked on its" fault (so say some customers).
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  #35  
Old July 13th, 2006, 04:53 PM
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I know that some folks have been pulling off the sandwich plates and just running without the oil cooler. I've always been curious how effective it really is at 'Cooling' the oil, being that it is being cooled by 190 degree water. Though even it it doesn't really cool anything, the fact that it makes the engine temperature more stable throughout the block is good enough for me.

I've upgraded mine with a MOCAL thermostatic sandwich plate and aeroquip hoses. I went with the textile wrapped for the high pressure and temp ratings, as well as the abrasive and burst protective wrapping. I've been extremely happy with the result in more ways than one, even though it wasn't the cheap option. Eventually I still plan on adding a Setrab fan pack oil cooler, only because I don't think there is enough surplus cooling capacity in the system. I'd also like to figure out a better way to vent all the hot air from under the hood as well, since that is definitely contributing to a lot of folks overheating problems.

For those who haven't seen the writeup on the mocal oilstat....
www.siegecraft.us/mocal.htm

-Hans
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  #36  
Old July 13th, 2006, 05:08 PM
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Christian Gunther
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Oil Lines

When I bought my '94, the oil cooler lines were the first (of a very long list) things I swapped out for exactly this reason. At that time, my local shop was fixing one very sooty 110.
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  #37  
Old July 13th, 2006, 05:12 PM
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Speaking of heat shields & sleeves...check out www.heatshieldproducts.com for lots of neat stuff.
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  #38  
Old July 14th, 2006, 11:41 AM
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Richard Kurk
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Question for Mike Smith at ECR.

You mentioned in this thread that you wrap the oil lines in a thermo-wrap. Could you share what material/product/manufacturer you use? There appears to be a variety of materials to pick from, but a recommendation from someone having done this would be helpful. This seems like a good additional step and extra insurance.

Thanks,

Rich K.
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  #39  
Old July 14th, 2006, 12:01 PM
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Robert Ragland
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Guys,

Let's be real here. These oil lines are spraying. There is no denying that. Possibly the PS lines are doing the same, but as for the continuous report of fires I really doubt it is a hood release. Mine did the trick, and there was oil going everywhere - especially on the exhaust manifold. This caused more smoke than you would believe. Many trucks that catch fire do not burn all the way. I would imagine there would still be some tell-tale oil residue.

There are a couple of issues at play here. First, the NHTSA needs to see a blip on the radar. There are a some of things working against us. Numerically, there aren't that many Defenders in the US. This is not an issue with ROW models - only V8s having oil cooler lines. I believe, however, that on a rate basis, the line failures, if not the fires are statistically significant, and not some odd occurence. Imagine if this incident were playing out in F series pickups or Toyota Camrys, you would likely see a smoking vehicle on a weekly basis.

My guess is the NHTSA is not seeing the reports of fires. These are getting old, and so owners are not heading to the dealer with their problems. Likewise, who knows how such issues are listed by insurance companies when there is an actual burn. Remember, major recalls have been announced when there is any chance of fire due to some specific failure. I recall one for ignition systems that caused fires in a handful of vehicles (out of millions recalled).

LR knows this is happening, I have little doubt. They should release an updated service bulletin suggesting these pieces be changed on a particular schedule. That is my chief complaint - these lines are not addressed in the service schedules, and safety is certainly at risk. Were someone to suffer as a result, I think they would have a legitimate claim.
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  #40  
Old July 14th, 2006, 12:24 PM
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Robert, how many miles did the oil lines last before the spray trick?
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