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  #41  
Old October 12th, 2012, 06:04 PM
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Insert dial gauge. Watch for flat area just before TDC. Zero gauge. Turn to TDC and measure lift. Adjust as needed.
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  #42  
Old October 13th, 2012, 07:50 AM
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Julien Dalbin
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I just checked both Haynes manual and LR Tdi manual and couldn't find a procedure involving a dial gauge, just the regular flywheel pin and pump rod stuff. Where this method come from ?
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  #43  
Old October 13th, 2012, 10:14 AM
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It is how a pump rebuilder would set the pump. The pin method is shown in the manual since it is much simpler. Search on Google as there are a few tutorials for other cars. The Bosh VE pump is very common.
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  #44  
Old October 13th, 2012, 10:22 AM
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I will check google as this sound more accurate than the pin method, and a fine timing will have a positive impact on consumption and driving quality. I will order the dial gauge today also.
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  #45  
Old October 13th, 2012, 11:00 PM
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Let me know what you find and where you buy the dial gauge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFD
I will check google as this sound more accurate than the pin method, and a fine timing will have a positive impact on consumption and driving quality. I will order the dial gauge today also.
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  #46  
Old October 14th, 2012, 12:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Naplm00;379633]FYI interested parties

This lip is only on the updated 300TDI crank pulleys. It is not present on early 300tdi units or any 200 tdi units[/QUOTE

the updated pulley is considered a mandatory upgrade for 300's not so equiped. The belt WILL walk and grind against the front cover otherwise.
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  #47  
Old December 10th, 2012, 09:07 PM
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OK everyone, finally had the time to pull apart the Tdi and see what is going on.

It's a horror show on the inside of the timing case. From the best Josh and I can tell, the belt somehow either rode back towards the engine or got pinched and shredded.

See the attached pics. It's worth noting that the truck has the new smooth tensioners and lipped crank pulley.

Anyone want to take a stab at what the issue might be?
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  #48  
Old December 10th, 2012, 10:05 PM
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Yikes!

Is everything but the belt intact? In what location did it jump off, by the crank shaft? What tension did you set it at? Check the bolts on the tensioner to see if they are loose.
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  #49  
Old December 11th, 2012, 12:02 AM
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Neill. It's a little hard to see but it looks like the belt jumped off the ledge of the crankshaft pulley. It that correct? Did you use a complete timing belt kit (with new tensioner, crankshaft sprocket, etc) or did you just replace the belt? If you retrace your steps and describe to us in detail how you changed the belt we may figure out what went wrong.
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  #50  
Old December 11th, 2012, 03:36 AM
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Take you time and slowly clean all the crap out. Try looking for any sort of foreign object that shouldn't be in there. From looking at the rave there doesn't appear for there to be any way for stuff that shouldn't be back behind the timing cover to find it's way back there. How are the tensioner and idler? Once you clean out all the belt detritus try them both and see if they feel ok. Its non unheard of for parts to fail prematurely, even OE or OEM stuff..

Also, just thought about this.. how about crank walk aka excessive crank end float? Since there is a lip on both sides of the timing gear on the crank if the crank was moving fore and aft and the rear of the belt started wearing on rear lip it could start a sliver coming off which could grab and cause a catastrophic failure. Did you ever get a real oil pressure gauge on there?

Dunno, just throwing ideas out there..
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  #51  
Old December 11th, 2012, 05:56 AM
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Weak tensioner or stretched belt should be the first suspects in an accident like this.
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  #52  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:14 AM
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All,

First off... the belt and tensioners were brand new. Installed by the numbers from the 300Tdi overhaul manual. I am an anal SOB when it comes to torque values and other crap like that.

The belt certainly got over the lip of the back side of the crank pulley. The tension on the belt is still tight, but that may be due to shredded crap being wedged into the crank pulley and the belt.

Hadn't thought about crank float, I suppose that's a possibility, I'll have to check.

I will pull the belt off and see how the tensioners feel... who knows. They were brand new but anything is possible.

I am gonna pull the head while I have everything apart to make sure everything looks good inside, as well as confirming that I am at TDC when I perform the timing. Hopefully it looks better than this.
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  #53  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:20 AM
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BritPart? Allmakes?
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  #54  
Old December 11th, 2012, 11:29 AM
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RN ProLine... so whoever they used.
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  #55  
Old December 11th, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Neil, there is no doubt in my mind that your next mandatory action is to find a good priest that is tight with God and have your TDI exercised. It is clearly cursed to damnation by Satan.
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  #56  
Old December 11th, 2012, 01:23 PM
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IMHO you will find the problem once you remove the belt and check the tightness of the tensioner.

There is sometimes a discrepancy between what torque bolts were tightened to upon installation and how tight that bolt was when the failure occurred. Slightly undersized bolts, bolts that stretch, and of course bolts that loosen under vibration.

It's difficult to believe crank walk would allow the belt to slip over the lip on the crank pulley.

If the tensioner is still tight, then of course it's possible that the belt failed spontaneously.
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  #57  
Old December 11th, 2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
IMHO you will find the problem once you remove the belt and check the tightness of the tensioner.

There is sometimes a discrepancy between what torque bolts were tightened to upon installation and how tight that bolt was when the failure occurred. Slightly undersized bolts, bolts that stretch, and of course bolts that loosen under vibration.

It's difficult to believe crank walk would allow the belt to slip over the lip on the crank pulley.

If the tensioner is still tight, then of course it's possible that the belt failed spontaneously.
I've see crank walk cause timing belt failure on VW 4cyl motors before from using two piece main bearing sets with integrated thrust washers on the #3 journal vs the traditional 6 piece set with top and bottom shells and 4 thrust washers. Not sure if they even offer that style of main bearing for the TDI's. I've seen them on V8's and id be leery of using them in a MT truck.

That's the reason why i asked if Niell had installed a real oil pressure gauge. I remember from reading his thread with the whole alaska trip adventure when they were in SLC they bailed on the national rally due to low oil pressure. If the thrust washers had worn enough and pressure was down the oil jets in the bottom end could receive less pressure and lube the bottom end less exacerbating things and accelerating wear. The crank would have to be moving A LOT to allow the belt to start to wear on that lip. IIRC the stock measurement for end float on the TDI .05 to .15 mm.

Then again it could have just been a belt with a mfg defect, idk..
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  #58  
Old December 12th, 2012, 08:47 AM
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Neil, which tool/method did you use for pulling the right pressure on the belt pulley tensioner before locking it ?

I made a simple 5 kg at one foot distance leverage with a 5 liters bottle of water when I was changing mine, you'll have constant pressure and both hands free, I can post pics if you want.

Ah, use a Dayco belt, I got mine from lrdirect.com

Sorry to hear that you're back to case one, don't loose your patience.

Cheers
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  #59  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:19 AM
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Mark... trust me at this point if it meant drawing a pentagram on the shop floor and sacrificing something over the bonnet I would do it....

Julien... I used a lever gauge type of torque wrench to hold tension as I tightened the bolts. One of the things I wonder in the back of my mind is if tightening the bolts on the tensioners actually way overtightened the belt tension.
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  #60  
Old December 13th, 2012, 07:40 PM
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Well I have it all cleaned out, the head is off, etc.

First off, the crank has no end float or play that I can tell. However, I was surprised at how easily the crank timing pulley came off the shaft. I was expecting to have to use a puller. So now I wonder if the crank pulley was able to move around. That might explain the belt being shredded from the rear... the pulley moved out away from the engine, but the rest of the gears all stayed in place. I don't know, it's a guess.

Good news is everything in the cylinders looks good... while you can see where the valve and piston made contact on a few, there is no permanent scarring or damage, it just cleaned off the carbon.

Also good news is that the head gasket that was put on during the Alaska crisis was holding up great, so I think I can be pretty sure I don't have any warped head issues left over from that. I'm working on removing the gaskets off of everything, and then the rebuilding will begin.
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