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  #41  
Old October 15th, 2004, 12:53 AM
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Centrifuge filtration, now we're talking hard core! They're basically like those cyclone vacuums that they sell these days, they use the cyclonic action to spin the dust out away from the filter element and turn the airflow pattern into it's own prefilter. Never seen one for an automobile, but I have seen them on some German tanks.

-Hans
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  #42  
Old October 15th, 2004, 01:05 AM
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I think you're referring to something like the Centri Precleaner. Someday, I'll be relocating my air cleaner outside the engine compartment and probably putting one of these at the end of the snorkel (very similar to Trevor's setup).

http://www.centriprecleaner.com/
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  #43  
Old October 15th, 2004, 12:17 PM
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My centrifugal filter cap is a simpler setup than the Centri precleaners. I got it from JB Landrovers (http://www.jblandrovers.co.uk/) for about $55 5 years ago. It's really just a "stovepipe" cap, with slits around the top edge that create the cyclone effect inside, then exit slits around the outside bottom edges, where material can fall out. (Sorry that picture is blurry.)

I'm using a K&N filter in my relocated filter box. I removed the filter cone, and welded on a section of thick tubing which connects to the snorkel with a rubber coupling. The rigid sections are just ABS drainpipe. Everything is fastened with hose clamps, with improvised adaptors to mate the filter box to the wingtop, and the snorkel tubing to the rollcage.

The engine-compartment routing is based on John Lee's design, illustrated on his Expedition Exchange website, and flows in a direct straight line from the wing through the relocated MAF sensor into the intake plenum.
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  #44  
Old October 15th, 2004, 12:42 PM
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NICE Trevor!
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  #45  
Old October 15th, 2004, 05:16 PM
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Thanks, Trevor. That's the plan. Well done!

DW
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  #46  
Old October 15th, 2004, 11:26 PM
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Well, what is the point of putting the filter outside?

1. Getting cooler air? You still have quite a bit of pipe inside the engine bay which get's warmed up. I bet if you measure the air temp as it enters the plenum the gain is not worth it.

You would get cooler air by fitting an intercooler with the filter in the engine bay.

2. Better filtration? No. Heck, add a second filter internally and you get better filtration.

3. Poseur value? Ah, that's it!

So, what about bottom line gains? Performance gain? I doubt it. Don't forget that the snorkel has a purpose: it speeds up the flow of air at higher revs to meet the demand.

If you remove this you must increase the surface area of the "hole". Well, are you you doing this with this cyclone precleaner? Even if you are, you are introducing a longer, more confining path into the airflow which would slow it down. The snorkel has a very short path to preserve the increaseed airflow. What more do you want?

Probably cooler air. In this case abandon the snorkel with a larger pipe and run an intercooler. Cooler air at all revs. You will be introducing a more difficult path but the larger hole should compensate.

Of course, if gains can be documented then I will gladly admit my ignorance but it seems that noone ever bothers to justify this kind of conversion.
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  #47  
Old October 16th, 2004, 03:01 AM
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What's the verdict on K&N air filters?
Good , bad or undecided?
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  #48  
Old October 16th, 2004, 12:18 PM
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Arthur, you haven't been paying attention. The stated purpose by the originator of this thread is the need for cooler air going into the engine via a 'normal' intake route. I do also.
1. There's no mass of pipe in the engine bay anymore with Trevor's set up -- all there is between the throttle body and wingtop is about 6 inches of pipe and the MAF. Filter box, instead of acting like a heat sink for the engine bay, is outside in the cool air.
2. Not trying to achieve better filtration, rather just keep it standard. Extra filtration is a bonus if it comes along.
3. Humor, no? A little joke directed at us desert rats? Both Trevor and I have won off-road competitions in our rigs. (Trevor -- you did nail that Death Valley Challenge a couple of years ago, right? You should come do the NVTR.)

Mike, as far as K&N, the originator of the thread said he wanted to avoid an oiled filter. I don't particularly want one either -- too easy to just change out paper frequently and not worry about possible fouling of the MAF. But I'm still trying to figure this part out and certainly welcome to ideas. I keep hoping I'll find something between paper and oil that is better than both...

DW
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  #49  
Old October 16th, 2004, 12:22 PM
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If you are asking about why run a snorkle, the main purpose is usually to get the air intake up above water and avoid injesting anything liquid. It also tends to get up above any dust that gets kicked up, which means cleaner air before the filter even comes into play.

As for putting the filter outside the truck when running the snorkle, the hose routing that comes with the Mantec is absolutely horrid. But there is also really no room to put the filter under the hood without drastic measures. Trevor's setup gives the shortest possible intake routing under the hood, probably about 5 FEET or more shorter than the standard Mantec routing. It's an overall much neater and cleaner setup.

You're right that if we were out dualing at stoplights, ditching the snorkle and running an intercooler would be the better bet. But running at lower speeds in dusty/dirty/muddy conditions you won't get the needed flow over the intercooler and under the hood gets real hot and dirty. Sucking the air from a cooler cleaner source up high above the mess helps quite a lot.

-Hans
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  #50  
Old October 16th, 2004, 04:44 PM
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Arthur, others have addressed most of your questions already, but I'll answer myself as well (and forgive me if I've misinterpreted any of your logic).

The purpose of my snorkel was: (1) keep water out of my engine by raising the intake point above (hopefully) any conceivable water level, and (2) breathe cleaner less-dusty/sandy air by raising the intake point as high off the road as possible. "Raised air intake" says it all. Peformance gains were never a goal for my snorkel.

I've been in water up to about the base of my windshield (not entirely intentionally....), and the snorkel did save the day BIG-TIME. (I hadn't installed raised breathers on my axles and transmission yet, and those turned out to be the weak links.) I drive mostly in very dusty/sandy (Death Valley) conditions, with a lot of material kicked up by my truck and others', so hopefully the extra intake elevation is helping.

As I'm sure you've realized by now, I have almost no air ducting under the hood. In fact, the rubber hose from my wingtop-mounted filter box to the MAF is the stock hose, so I'm running exactly stock distance, but mostly outside the hot engine compartment. That's a LOT less than other snorkel designs like Mantec. The tubing I've added before the filter box (which obviously doesn't exist in the stock setup) is about 4" diameter, less constraining than Mantec's.

Plus with the centrifugal snorkel cap, I'm getting at least somewhat superior filtration to stock.

Poseur value? Well John Lee did once refer to my truck, on the DiscoWeb, as a "pimped-out" disgrace to the Rover cause. So who knows? It works for me, and definitely gets my gear and me there and back, to lots of places I'd never otherwise reach. And the curious looks aren't always a bad thing either.

Doug, I actually didn't win the Death Valley Challenge, but did enjoy participating. Sad to say, my navigator and I ended up so carsick that we bailed about halfway through the course. Human frailty....

Trevor
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  #51  
Old October 17th, 2004, 12:38 AM
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Doug:

1. Only 6" of pipe??? I would think you need at least 2-ft from the wing to the plenum.
3. Yes, I was aware of your "desert rat" status.


Hans:

1. I referred to the filter being outside, not the snorkel. I am aware of its function.
2. I am certainly not recommending Mantec's system! It is crappy engineering.
3. You do get good airflow with an intercooler at low rmps - from the fans(s)! So, you're always drawing cold air from the front of the vehicle - assuming your fan(s) are up to it.


Trevor:

1. Again, I was not critisizing the snorkel - just the external filter box.
2. I'll have to measure that wing to plenum distance. I thought you still had quite a run of pipe.
3. "pimped-out disgrace": well, I wouldn't go that far! Oh wait, is that a shovel on the hood? I will go that far then!
4. didn't win: I'll still call you a desert rat, unless Doug objects in sharing that title.


I'm looking for a cleaner setup and don't need a snorkel just yet so I would try the intercooler route. I will admit, if a snorkel is used then running pipes to and from the intercooler sure adds some distance.

Considering the various driving styles are you really noticing any improvement? A dyno would surely reveal any but who wants to go that far? If temps can be measured that may tell the story.
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  #52  
Old October 17th, 2004, 01:16 AM
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Jees guys, I don't mean to be overly a**holish, but for f sakes, over 50 posts on an air box upgrade. Your putting this much effort and consideration into something that will net you 2 H.P. if your lucky? Come on, it doesn't matter, run whatever, a snorkle, K&N, who cares. Leave it stock, take the time you were going to spend assesing the situation, and solve world hunger.
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  #53  
Old October 17th, 2004, 06:04 PM
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Does anyone know where I can get a flexible hose that I can link the vent from the wingtop to the airbox?
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  #54  
Old October 17th, 2004, 06:48 PM
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Nasser,

For a couple years before relocating my filter box to the wingtop, I routed my snorkel along the circuitous vent-to-stock-filter-location-to-plenum path (same as Mantec). But here's another issue to consider, which hasn't been raised yet in this already-hefty thread. Not only is a long and twisty air-path disadvantageous, but so is the interior "corrugated" surface of flexible tubing. The irregular surface is one more factor impeding airflow. So one alternative solution is to devise a rigid "smooth-bore" ducting layout. That's what I did, with the ubiquitous ABS drain-pipe. It took a lot of adjusting to get all the angles right, but what I ended up with was larger-diameter, non-corrugated, and much more heat/puncture-resistant ducting.
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  #55  
Old October 17th, 2004, 07:57 PM
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If yo are wondering about the advantages of a snorkel this might help.

http://www.landroveradventure.com/vi...320x240x10.wmv
click on the video section (left of page). At the bottom of the videos listed is one about snorkels. Click on the 1.5m just to the right.

If this has already been posted then ignore. I didn't have time to read all 4 pgs of this posting.
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  #56  
Old October 17th, 2004, 09:29 PM
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Keep in mind, that is only possible in a Diesel.
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  #57  
Old October 17th, 2004, 11:23 PM
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Art, the distance from the plenum to the wingtop is definitely more than 6" but remember that you also need to factor the Mass Air sensor into there, which takes up a good portion of that distance regardless of how you attach it to the plenum.

Buck, honestly I don't care much about the HP gain, I just want to get better air into the engine instead of that 150 degree sauna it's sucking down now. I've calculated about a 1.5mpg difference between summer and winter in my truck driving the same roads to work every day with the same grade gas from the same station. (kept a log of every drop of gas and every mile driven), so I'm hoping for a milage difference between the cooler air and the improved flow. 10% less fuel cost, Yummy!

-Hans
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  #58  
Old October 18th, 2004, 01:02 AM
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Okay,

I get that, but you must realize that by moving the air box you will never get more than the most infintesimal gain. I promise, you will not notice any gain in fuel economy. In NY you are comparing 80 degrees in the summer to 30 degrees in the winter. If you pull all the tricks, you might see a drop in intake temp of 2 to 10 degrees tops. It will take you 15 years to get back the money you spent just skrewing around. The only way to make a difference is with an intercooler, and if you want to spend $500 for .0005 more miles per gallon of gas, thats your decision. I recommend you let off the gas .01 seconds earlier when cruising to red lights, you will see more of a gain that way.
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  #59  
Old October 18th, 2004, 08:54 PM
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I work on a lot of diesel forklifts used in extremely dusty environments. A lot of these have some interesting filtration and precleaner systems that look like they could be adapted to our uses quite easily. Check out www.donaldson.com for more information and ideas.
Rob
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  #60  
Old October 19th, 2004, 04:37 AM
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Long pipe runs can actually rob BHP. Restrictive snorkles can actually rob 10bhp from a Tdi I've been told.
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