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  #1  
Old July 5th, 2006, 05:28 PM
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4.6 powered 97 D90s

I'm looking for a better solution.
We install 4.6s in D90s (1997 GEMS EFI system) but the EFI upgrade chips have been a hassle to date.
So for those that installed 4.6s into NAS 1997 D90s... what did you do for an ECU upgrade to match the engine?

Some have said they just toggled 4.6 in the menu with an Auto-Logic or RoverCom, but sadly only the 4.0 software exists in a NAS D90 ECU, so although it will flag as "4.6" in the screen, that does nothing to the engine settings themselves.

Some have said install an RPI chip, but these do not have the engine diagnostics and the check engine light does not work as they are just slightly repackaged 4.6HSE chips.

I can run the 4.6HSE chip set (as that does have both the 4.0 and 4.6 tune inside it) but its going to blown gearbox retard codes every time you shut it off.

I need some outside the box thinking from you guys.
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  #2  
Old July 5th, 2006, 05:43 PM
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What are the Rover engine tuners in England using? I would imagine some one else has had this issue as well. One might think RPi would have something bordering on a solution.

If there is one element of Rover ownership that gives me grief it is the engine management. Codes, sensor errors, poor fuel mixture, etc. My engine has never really run that great from when I bought with 24k on the clock.
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  #3  
Old July 5th, 2006, 05:49 PM
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Current English solution seems to be "who cares about the US market and their "check engine" lights." RPI and others are currently just doing UK based tunes that do not take into account the needs of US customers.

That or I'm just too picky, but I think the check engine light and codes should work correctly.
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  #4  
Old July 5th, 2006, 06:47 PM
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1. Are these tripped codes happening because the 4.0 uses different parameters from the 4.6?

2. Can you acquire the eprom code? Ideally, you want to to edit these parameters and reflash the eprom.

3. Or, you can insert a bit of code to clear these specific codes when you restart.

4. Assuming you can clear codes by code#, you can make a small digital circuit to send a "clear code" signal to the ecu upon every restart. If you can't clear specific codes, you can send a "clear all" signal but you may lose other pending codes that may be useful.

So, is the ecu code (program) available anywhere???

I'm waiting on a reply from the Megasquirt guys if they plan on an OBD2 unit - that would certainly solve my problem!
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  #5  
Old July 5th, 2006, 06:50 PM
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But, what about US 4.6 engines from other platforms? Would there be a plug and play ECU solution available from, say, a US model Range Rover? And if so, would you need the whole ECU, or just the PROM that carries the tune map on it?
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  #6  
Old July 5th, 2006, 07:14 PM
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I don't worry about it. I don't think there is an appreciable difference between the 2 chips. It probably matters more for the transmission computer in a P38 to know which engine it is dealing with to get the shifts right. My rationale is this. The fuel pressure, coolant temp, air temp, cam position, and crank position inputs will not change with the bigger engine. The airflow reading will go up a bit, the TPS may go down a bit for a given load, but there is enough latitude in the fuel map to compensate. The O2 and knock sensor inputs are dependent on the running adjustments that the ECU makes as the car runs. The outputs are the injector on time and the spark timing. As long as the fuel map is sufficient to allow the ECU to make adjustments so that it is happy with the O2 and knock sensor inputs, the car will run right. So long as the bigger engine doesn't go "off the map", I doubt there is a difference between the 4.0 & 4.6 chips.
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Old July 5th, 2006, 07:40 PM
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Yes, but the codes are still thrown and the cel goes off. Try to get that smogged and you're dead. ECR needs to get it right - surely no customer is expected to worry about passing smog because of an idiot light that doesn't matter in any respect - except this legal one. That's a big deal!
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  #8  
Old July 5th, 2006, 08:20 PM
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But, what about when the engine isn't in closed-loop operation (or is it open loop, when it uses O2 sensor inputs?)

The base fuel map is all running off a pre-programmed curve that doesn't take into account the mixture readings coming back. Stochiometric tuning doesn't come into play when the engine is cool, or when you're at idle. With the 15% or so difference in engine displacement, the 4.0 base curve may run the engine way too lean.

-Hans
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  #9  
Old July 5th, 2006, 09:55 PM
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Well, that's the point, really. On the conversions that I've done I haven't changed the chips at all and the cars run fine and there have been no CEL lights and no problems with emissions or driveability. My position is that the factory fuel/spark maps for the 4.0 and 4.6 engines are the same or very close and that no change is necessary for proper functioning....for performance or emissions. Further, I believe that the reason that you can choose between 4.0 and 4.6 in an HSE Range Rover is so that the transmission computer knows which engine it is dealing with. The 2 computers are in constant communication with the engine ecu sharing sensor data so that the trans ecu can calculate torque output and so that the engine ecu can modify the fuel and spark timing as the transmission is shifting (for a smoother shift). Since the Defenders and Disco1's have hydraulically shifted automatic transmissions, they have no need for this capability. Additionally, if you compare the 4.0 and 4.6 engines, you find that the EFI hardware, fuel systems, computers, cylinder heads, connecting rods, and bore size are all the same. I'm pretty sure the cams are even ground the same (in the NAS market, anyway). The difference is in the stroke of the crank and the pin height on the piston for that extra 0.6L of displacement. With such a minor difference between the hardware and the need to keep factory emissions and driveability levels in compliance, I don't see how the factory programs for the 2 engines could differ significantly. The 4.6 makes more power because it can burn more fuel based on the additional air it can suck in by virtue of the increased displacement. The computer will only feed it as much fuel as it can efficiently burn based on O2 data. If you increased airflow significantly with reworked intake and heads and exhaust and added a hotter cam, you would probably find the limits of the factory ecu and start setting codes, necessitating changing the ecu or prom....but swapping in a stock or mildly tweaked 4.6 will likely be within the scope of what the factory ecu programming can handle.

Follow-up Post:

Hans,
That's a good point, open loop may be different. One of the times that an engine pollutes the most is on cold start. One of the places that manufacturers have been focusing on cutting emissions is during this cold start period. The focus is on getting the O2 sensors up to temp and the cats lit off quickly. To that end, Land Rover has gone to heated o2 sensors and the engines are run deliberately rich on cold start to get fuel into the cats to help light them off quickly. We'd have to monitor a GEMS motor to see how quickly it goes into closed loop, but I'd bet it's under 2 minutes. I think the over rich mixture used during cold start would prevent any lean running issues, at most slightly lengthening the time it takes to hit closed loop if there is a difference between the open loop maps.
Additionally, GEMS is an adaptive system and learns, among other things, long term fuel corrections (LTFT-long term fuel trim). I would be curious to know whether the GEMS ecu runs with a fixed open loop map or adjusts it based on LTFT, temperature, or other factors. If open loop operation is also adaptive and adjusted for conditions, cold start and other open loop operations would be a non-issue.
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  #10  
Old July 5th, 2006, 10:18 PM
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That is a very good question though about if the GEMS system is adaptive in open-loop as well as closed-loop. Unfortunately, I have no way to figure that out myself.... never worked on a GEMS system at all. I wonder if anybody other than the programmers know that. I'm also curious if the engine runs in open or closed loop at a hot idle. I know a lot of systems run in open loop at idle, regardless of temperature or anything else. It's only after they get up above a certain RPM that they go into closed loop.

I agree with you about closed loop however, the system should be able to adapt itself to run the engine perfectly fine and clean. It may not be the optimal setup for power, but it should definitely be within the ECU parameters to run it reliably and within emissions requirements.

-Hans
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  #11  
Old July 5th, 2006, 10:25 PM
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We'd have to hook up a scanner to be sure on the hot idle. I'm thinking it's mostly closed loop or may fluctuate, I don't think it just drops into open loop.
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  #12  
Old July 5th, 2006, 11:00 PM
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Here is a totally different train of thought. What kind of signal is the transmission producing/not producing that is throwing the codes out? Would it be possible to make an inexpensive dummy terminator similar to those used in the Coil conversions on RRC's, and prevent the trouble code? Or it a true data signal communicated between the two ECU's that is missing?

-Hans
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  #13  
Old July 6th, 2006, 08:18 AM
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So far I have done the following very basic, seat of the pants/ non techncal tests on 97 D90 we installed a 4.6 into.
There is a 0-60 and seat of the pants feel difference when driven on the stock 4.0 set up as compared to a HSE chip set. Without having all the devices to measure it its hard to say what the difference is, but it can be felt.
The next up was the RPI chip and this took a step above the HSE chip in performance feel, especially in the 50-70 tests.

But sadly the HSE chips blow a gearbox code, and the RPI units have no diagnostics.

My chip guy says he can work on the gearbox codes, but I asked him to start working on that back in the year 2000 and he still hasn't found the time.

I hear you about the slight difference from 4.0 to 4.6, but its my feeling that if the customer spends all the money to have us install a 4.6 he outta feel it (a lot) and I think that means a chip to maximize engine performance, not just let the new 4.6 go along on a 4.0 tune. In any other car I play with that has EFI, if we change something.. we change the computer settings. Even if I do a cold air intake or soemthing we re-flash the computer, so with something as big as a displacement change with a diference stroke there has to be more available. My Mustang jumps with huge gains just by doing the computer (no engine change) so I have to say that doing a displacement change with no chip change seems backwards to my thinking, that is just my personal take on it.

We have the 14CUX system sorted and the differences we get there between the stardard 3.9 or 4.2 chip to the one we use today is really nice, so I have to believe there is a way with the GEMS system.

I was fishing for some new trick that I hadn't heard about, maybe one will still pop up.
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  #14  
Old July 6th, 2006, 08:54 AM
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Megasquirt offers you the ability to change all the important numbers to tune a motor to whatever state. Does Rovacom or whatever do the same? I assume no or you'd be all set by now.

If you can't access that data to edit it then you need access to the code itself. There has to be some tool that allows this access.

I don't think there's any trick to be discovered - just the right way.

By the way, Measquirt people say no to any OBD2 models. Damn!
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Old July 6th, 2006, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
We'd have to hook up a scanner to be sure on the hot idle. I'm thinking it's mostly closed loop or may fluctuate, I don't think it just drops into open loop.
Its closed loop

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
Megasquirt offers you the ability to change all the important numbers to tune a motor to whatever state. Does Rovacom or whatever do the same? I assume no or you'd be all set by now.

If you can't access that data to edit it then you need access to the code itself. There has to be some tool that allows this access.

I don't think there's any trick to be discovered - just the right way.

By the way, Measquirt people say no to any OBD2 models. Damn!
Auto-Logic/ Rovacom all give you the ability to change some parameters, but you can't get into the fuel maps and adjust them. They are diagnostic tools, not program tools unfortunately.

The Rover chips are very secure and you can't get to what you need to get to without a computer and a lot more hacking ability than I have.

and I don't think I can talk customers into an entire new EFI system.

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  #16  
Old July 6th, 2006, 09:30 AM
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Superchip

Now, that being said, I never did one in a d90 only discos and 4.0s and it was not my install, I just sold the chips.
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  #17  
Old July 6th, 2006, 09:41 AM
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Superchip
.
Can't find anything with them that relates to a displacement change, or to Defender.
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  #18  
Old July 6th, 2006, 10:42 AM
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I have no knowledge to push the thread ahead...sorry. But I was curious is the 97 GEMS used for the 94/95 transplant also?? in other words is the issue the same for the earlier cars?
(engine management systems are out of my league, but I was curious how they differ)
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Old July 6th, 2006, 10:44 AM
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Mike,
Now you've got me curious. I pulled open the parts catalog this morning to check some things...there are about 15 different GEMS ECUs offered for P38RR (as of 2000) depending on vin number and market (but do not distinguish between 4.0 & 4.6 or automatic & manual). The markets listed were Uk & Europe, Australia, Japan, Gulf States and ROW. I have 2 thoughts...with the 4.6HSE prom set installed in the GEMS ecu, is it possible to tell it that it is a 5 speed car, thus no comms with the trans ECU would be initiated? I fired up the Rova-com this morning but I don't have a GEMS car to plug it into to see what settings I can change. Second, is there another market, such as Japan maybe, where a 5 speed 4.6HSE was sold that also used the 4 oxygen sensor setup and the diagnostics of the NAS market?
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  #20  
Old July 6th, 2006, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btate
I have no knowledge to push the thread ahead...sorry. But I was curious is the 97 GEMS used for the 94/95 transplant also?? in other words is the issue the same for the earlier cars?
(engine management systems are out of my league, but I was curious how they differ)

No, the 1993-1995 NAS Defender 110s and 90s use the 14CUX EFI system. A much easier system to deal with and modify (in my opinion). Those we have rock solid upgrades for without issue. The NAS 110 presented some fault code issues at first due to its 3038 chip, but that has been long since sorted.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
Mike,
Now you've got me curious. I pulled open the parts catalog this morning to check some things...there are about 15 different GEMS ECUs offered for P38RR (as of 2000) depending on vin number and market (but do not distinguish between 4.0 & 4.6 or automatic & manual). The markets listed were Uk & Europe, Australia, Japan, Gulf States and ROW. I have 2 thoughts...with the 4.6HSE prom set installed in the GEMS ecu, is it possible to tell it that it is a 5 speed car, thus no comms with the trans ECU would be initiated? I fired up the Rova-com this morning but I don't have a GEMS car to plug it into to see what settings I can change. Second, is there another market, such as Japan maybe, where a 5 speed 4.6HSE was sold that also used the 4 oxygen sensor setup and the diagnostics of the NAS market?

It is "selectable" to tell it it is a 5 speed. I'll go try that in a few minutes with some HSE chips.
The problem is that a lot of stuff is "selectable" in the screens of the Rovercom and Auto-Logic, but that doesn't mean the software exists.
For years I heard about shops doing 4.6 conversions and just "selecting" 4.6 instead of 4.0 in the screen on D90 chips, but they had no idea that this didn't actually change anything (other than the screen) as the software did not exist inside the ECU.

A RR 4.6HSE chip with 4 02 sensors and a 5 speed would be a chip to play with... but I doubt any were ever made. I think when you went "full luxury" with the 4.6HSE and a V8 they just stuck the automatic in it. But then again I really only know US Rovers. Anyone? Bueller??
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