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  #21  
Old July 6th, 2006, 11:00 AM
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Once again, I am sure there is a valid reason why this will not work. But, why not put the 93-95 14CUX EFI system into the 97's? or will it cause other issues??
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  #22  
Old July 6th, 2006, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btate
Once again, I am sure there is a valid reason why this will not work. But, why not put the 93-95 14CUX EFI system into the 97's? or will it cause other issues??
Its an added cost factor. The cost of getting the chip sorted and plugging it into a GEMS unit would be about 100 times less the cost of sourcing and installing a 14CUX system into a 1997 D90. There are more issues there as well, but that is for another thread.
The 14CUX ECU and the GEMS ECU are radically different, as are the systems. Almost nothing is interchangable between the two.
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  #23  
Old July 6th, 2006, 11:15 AM
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" 5 speed 4.6HSE " rover never made any of these. Only 4.0 5 speed p38a and diesel of course :-)

Call mike at LR West Chester down here in PA and ask him about the superchip. He was the expert. My understanding was the superchip was the same from 4.0 to 4.6
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  #24  
Old July 6th, 2006, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
Mike,
Now you've got me curious. I pulled open the parts catalog this morning to check some things...there are about 15 different GEMS ECUs offered for P38RR (as of 2000) depending on vin number and market (but do not distinguish between 4.0 & 4.6 or automatic & manual). The markets listed were Uk & Europe, Australia, Japan, Gulf States and ROW. I have 2 thoughts...with the 4.6HSE prom set installed in the GEMS ecu, is it possible to tell it that it is a 5 speed car, thus no comms with the trans ECU would be initiated?

Just FYI,
I installed some 4.6HSE chips and selected 5 speed instead of auto. The system blows the same auto box codes and transfer box link codes, so that means the software for the 5 speed isn't in the NAS 4.6HSE chips.
As with all things Rover... that would have been too easy anyway.

Superchips says they make nothing that will handle the displacement change from 4.0 to 4.6 in a NAS D90.
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  #25  
Old July 6th, 2006, 11:53 AM
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  #26  
Old July 6th, 2006, 12:00 PM
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Where there is trouble, there is opportunity...

Over the next two or three years, there will be hundreds of Defender owners pondering engine replacement. Not simply the build-up enthusiast and/or guy with 20k for a diesel swap, but lots of folks who just want their truck to drive. Most will have 3.9s, and will not likely want to stay that route. Surely someone could put together an engine replacement kit even if it means programming a new chip. As for the post-'96 MY EPA issues mentioned on the other thread, I would assume the 94s and 95s are fair game.
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  #27  
Old July 6th, 2006, 12:15 PM
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http://catalog.roversnorth.com/downl...SP34_pg2_3.pdf

Buy the standard D90 one from RN (better yet Mike at LR West Chester). According to Mike the PN is the same between 4.0 and 4.6 range rovers so it should work the same with a D90.
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  #28  
Old July 6th, 2006, 01:11 PM
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I'm a little baffled by that as the GEMS unit uses 2 chips that have to work together. Superchip sells you one chip and the article indicates change the "chip"?? Maybe its just a type-o. When to fully upgrade a GEMS ECU you have to change both chips (1 chip for 14CUX, 2 chips for GEMS).
Regardless, the techs at Superchip told me not to run a displacement change (4.6 where a 4.0 used to be) on their Superchip due to a potential lean condition. So I have to take their word for it.
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  #29  
Old July 6th, 2006, 01:25 PM
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Hmmmm.....

What did the TVR's use during that time frame? Were any of them using the 4.6 and GEMS system? I doubt they had automatics in them.

-Hans
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  #30  
Old July 6th, 2006, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragland
Where there is trouble, there is opportunity...

Over the next two or three years, there will be hundreds of Defender owners pondering engine replacement. Not simply the build-up enthusiast and/or guy with 20k for a diesel swap, but lots of folks who just want their truck to drive. Most will have 3.9s, and will not likely want to stay that route. Surely someone could put together an engine replacement kit even if it means programming a new chip. As for the post-'96 MY EPA issues mentioned on the other thread, I would assume the 94s and 95s are fair game.
The problem is not really one of the stuff not being available... it is one of me being a picky bastard.
I want more performance, I want the check engine light to work, I want, I want,....

Already you can have a 4.6 installed somewhere and they'll toggle the little screen to 4.6 instead of 4.0 and send you along your way (but we know that doesn't change anything). You can buy a chip set from RPI and that will work but your idle will suck and the diagnostics won't work. You can buy a Superchip and plug it in and that will get you going, etc etc.

So the problem is that in most peoples eyes "there is no problem". They have plenty of solutions offered to them by the experts.
The problems comes when I want it to be perfect and work better in all respects. Most people don't give a crap about that.

Its a lot like our SS exhausts... we wanted perfect every time. The supplier got it right sometimes and wrong sometimes. To them that was OK and we parted ways because I wanted it right EVERY time, especially as I was going to try and sell them as "weekend bolt up install parts" (How pissed would you be if you bought an exhaust and it didn't fit! I'd be livid.)

So to get my "wants" I get to likely develop a chip with someone on my own.
RATS! For once I'd like an easy solution.


Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Hmmmm.....

What did the TVR's use during that time frame? Were any of them using the 4.6 and GEMS system? I doubt they had automatics in them.

-Hans
TVRs and Morgans use a modifed set up and sadly the 9661 software in the NAS D90 does not directly relate, so those chips cause more problems then they solve.
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  #31  
Old July 6th, 2006, 02:02 PM
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No, from my vantage you are not being excessively picky. The average owner is not a mechanic. They will be somewhat annoyed if, after spending close to $5k for a new engine install, the check engine light never goes away, runs rich too often, starts poorly as a result, etc. etc.

Again, someone should put together the entire upgrade engine kit available for drop shipment to your shop of choice. That is, one that the owner can have installed and forget about.
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  #32  
Old July 6th, 2006, 07:43 PM
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Hi Mike- tell me about that 14cux chip...

I have just put a 4.6 into my 95 defender and didn't know if there would be a difference by chipping. It has a hot cam, 4.6 heads with oversized valves port and polished, hei dizzy and god knows what else I did. What do you think about a chip? What kind of money would I be looking at?
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  #33  
Old July 7th, 2006, 12:38 AM
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Mike - FWIW, I installed a PowerChip in my 97 D90. Only received 1 chip, so I don't think it's type in regard to the Superchips RN article. Mark
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  #34  
Old July 7th, 2006, 09:13 AM
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vesaprover:
That is what we are trying to sort. I don't have agood answer for you yet on the GEMS cars, but if you did all those mods and didn't tell the computer what you did to the mechanical stuff in my opinion the mods are wasted (or at least not fully utilized).

Oxcart13:
According to my chip guru (Mark Adams in the UK who makes the chips for RPI, Morgans, etc) in a GEMS system if you only change 1 chip you can only play with the timing, not the fuel map or anything and he calls it "useless"... just FYI... I'm not saying who is right. In our GEMS upgrades to date we have always installed chip sets (pairs).
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  #35  
Old July 7th, 2006, 09:38 AM
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"Regardless, the techs at Superchip told me not to run a displacement change (4.6 where a 4.0 used to be) on their Superchip due to a potential lean condition. So I have to take their word for it."

Interesting. Call them and ask them if the part number for 4.0 and 4.6 P38a trucks is the same or not. Three plus years ago it was. There was a 4.0 that we had a superchip in, then guy gets a 4.6 short block (and cam) and he wants a new chip. Order chip and it is the same PN.

YMMV

Ron

Vespa: 4.6 in a 95 D90 you can be cheap and just run a 4.2 chip out of a 93-95 range rover classic
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  #36  
Old July 7th, 2006, 10:16 AM
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Yeah, the Superchip thing sounds odd. I agree the part #s seem to be the same. I'm waiting for a call from my UK guy to ask him some questions and then I'll report back, and I put another call into Supership to try and get to a tech. I'm baffled how they do anything but advance the timing with just one chip.

4.2 chips... not a perfect set up but certainly will help some and is really low cost. I've got some I'll sell for 10. to people on the list if anyone wants to play with one.
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  #37  
Old July 7th, 2006, 10:43 AM
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Mike,

It would make sense the PNs are the same if all they are doing is timing. The ones sold the customers seemed fairly happy with the change, we flogged one (the 4.0 car) and it gave an improvement in 0-60 time.

Ron

P.S. I will take a 4.2 chip. I will email you. I can give you a CC or just mail cash.
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  #38  
Old July 10th, 2006, 03:30 PM
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Just wanted to share some more info I have found with y'all.

Superchip: They do only change the one chip and this means they only alter the ignition timing. They do not alter the fuel maps, or anything else. However, having seen the maps the ignition advance will yield a good mid range boost with more advance, but little on the upper end. Idle smoothing would be unchanged.

UK/ RPI chips: These change tons of things from idle speeds to fuel maps, speed limiters, etc etc. That is why there are 2 chips. More costly, but you also get more refinement.

Stock GEMS system, a rough guess was given to me of about 25-30% loss of power if the GEMS computer is just left alone on the 4.0 tune with a 4.6 installed, but it would handle it safely, but just not give many gains (especially if other mods were done to the 4.6 (cam, etc)).

We are currently sorting the GEMS ECU issues for the NAS with the chip manufacture and hope to have it all sorted by Fall so all sources cab sell a correct NAS chip set. Currently the security code and the check engine light are issues that can not be currently solved in the Defender GEMS (not from RPI or anywhere else).

So as usual the "NASness" means more hassles, but hopefuly they will be solved shortly. Then I'll report back.
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  #39  
Old July 10th, 2006, 04:48 PM
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Mike,

Good info. It seems to make sense that the superchip would be the same if it only messed with timing. Another "trick" or hack depending on how you look at it, is to crank up the fuel pressure a tad when you swap the 4.6 in (some modify the stock regulator, others install adjustable). I would like to hear your view on this one as well.

I sent you an email I would appreciate a 4.2 chip if you get some time.

Ron
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  #40  
Old July 10th, 2006, 05:16 PM
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I was just about to recomend Mark Adams but see you know about him. If he cant do it no one can!
He tuned a pair of chips for my 4.0 GEMS Defender after a tranferbox change to re-gear and it flies now.

James
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