4.0 Engine needs replacement... plz HELP! - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old April 30th, 2008, 09:50 PM
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Larry Walton
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4.0 Engine needs replacement... plz HELP!

The 4.0 in my '97 just bit the dust. I havent gotten the official call from the boss mechanic yet.He is still looking at options but my cousin went down to the shop and talked with the other mechanics and they are saying that the crank is hosed, a piston got dented, metal chunks were found in the crankcase etc. They are talking loosely like an entirely new engine will be needed.

Thought I would get on here before the other shoe drops and I get the price quote to fix it. I am wondering if anyone knows of an inexpensive source for motor parts....rebuilt 4.0 short or long block? Maybe you have another idea of how to deal with this or what you would do?

I will likely get the detailed story of what the damage is tomorrow. I am hoping that some of you with a lot more experience with problems like this may have ideas or suggestions to ease the sting of the cost of this fix. Any info you may have before I commit to a very expensive repair would be appreciated.


Please help..
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  #2  
Old April 30th, 2008, 09:59 PM
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4.6 shortblock
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  #3  
Old April 30th, 2008, 10:20 PM
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mark kellgren
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You could probably find a a good used Disco I engine for next to nothing and drop that in with little mod. anyone confirm this? Upgrading to the 4.6 is prob the best petrol option however.
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  #4  
Old April 30th, 2008, 11:37 PM
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Chris Davis
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I replaced my 3.9 with a 4.6 and I also have a 3.5 and a 4.0. Mileage is about the same--all between 13-14. I drive the 4.6 harder, no doubt, and if I was ginger with it I might get 14-15. Point is, you won't "justify" the 4.6 with gas mileage but NO DOUBT it is worth it in every way. If you want to replace the whole engine, that is the way to go.

If, however, you are on a shoestring and you want to buy the guts of pistons and crank from a good 4.0, let me know. I have them from my 4.6 conversion.

Just pm me.

Personally, without a second glance, I would upgrade to a 4.6. I bet 1/2 the board that does not want to spend the money to go diesel are secretly wishing they had your current situation to fully justify to themselves/wives/husbands to upgrade. If you want to fold $10K, go diesel! Otherwise, pm me or better yet, go 4.6.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:53 PM
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x2 on the 4.6L


If you don't want to spend the $4k+ on a 4.6 BP has a new 4.2 for sale $1999 (one left). http://www.landroverparts.us/LandRoverSpecial.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by BP
We have one 4.2 crate motor left in stock. Comes with crank, pistons, and rods installed. You add the cam, cam gear, and chain, sold separately and in stock. While specifically used on the LWB's, they can be used to replace a 3.9: use your heads, manifold, etc. from the 3.9, they bolt right on. There is only one left, first come, first served!
Possible places to get an engine:
www.roversdownsouth.com
www.atlanticbritish.com
www.carcannibal.com/rover
www.roverlandparts.com
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Old May 1st, 2008, 07:36 AM
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Larry Walton
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OK guys, sounds like many of you are very supportive of switching to the 4.6. What are the benefits of the 4.6?? I assume more power but is it more robust?? Longer lasting design? Rumor has it that the 4.0 is some variant of an old Buick design that has been abandoned by other car manufacturers due to issues.

I would need to have a clear idea of what would be the ramifications of switching to the 4.6...IE...electronic controls including emissions and ignition. I think I have read about some sensor changes or such needing to be done. I am no pro mechanic but I have a very talented one who will be doing the work on this. He has no experience with Defender engine conversions though and we would need a solid resource of info to successfully accomplish a conversion to a 4.6. Can anyone give us a detailed definitive description of what is required in the way of custom fitting etc? Maybe one of you who have been through this process and can advise us?? I have a bit of time to do some topic searches on this forum for this info but doubt I will be able to piece together the complete and definitive procedure this way.

Please keep in mind that I have the 4.0 currently and NOT what appears to be the more typical 3.9.

If my heads are still viable will they fit on the 4.6 short block?


Concerning the 4.2 .... "they can be used to replace a 3.9: use your heads, manifold, etc. from the 3.9, they bolt right on".... is this also true for the 4.0 parts??

MOTORCARS LTD "Jaguar and Land Rover solution center" Has anyone gotten an engine from these people? Anyone have experience with them?


THX for your advice so far.
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Old May 1st, 2008, 07:48 AM
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These guys are closer to you, http://www.stewartsauto.com

I bought a new 4.0 block from Stewart 4 years ago and he was great. May want to give him a ring.
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  #8  
Old May 1st, 2008, 09:49 AM
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Another option which i'm sure could run away from you quickly dollar wise if your not careful is to custom rebuild your motor. Pull the motor send it to an engine shop. Throw a cam in it, do the heads, your own pistons, bearings etc. Then you have a brand new motor vs. something used. RPI engineering might be a good resource for you if you are interested. You can even get chrome rocker covers

Follow-up Post:

Another option which i'm sure could run away from you quickly dollar wise if your not careful is to custom rebuild your motor. Pull the motor send it to an engine shop. Throw a cam in it, do the heads, your own pistons, bearings etc. Then you have a brand new motor vs. something used. RPI engineering might be a good resource for you if you are interested. You can even get chrome rocker covers Make sure you really think this one out because you are in a unique situation to really change the way you enjoy your truck.
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  #9  
Old May 1st, 2008, 09:52 AM
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Mark M
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Stephan - exactly what I did. My block was fine with 60K on it. Pulled and sent to machine shop for honing. Then 4.6 crank, pistons, and rods from RPI. Mark
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Old May 1st, 2008, 11:46 AM
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Mark, Maybe for reference purposes you could give a ball park number of how much you spent so that Larry has some figures to compare to. Larry, If the block is ok, this is the option that I would do, personally. I would also be a kid in a candy store doing the work myself and I'm gathering your not going to do it and will be hit with labor, so that's something to consider also.
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Old May 1st, 2008, 08:14 PM
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Mark M
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If I remember correctly, 4.6 crank, bearing, rods, pistons, and new rings was around $1K. (Under 500 BP) This was an unusual deal from RPI, so don't know if they could drum it up again for somebody. Don't recall import fees. Depending on the mechanic, looking at 25 hours to pull the motor, install new lower end parts, re-assemble top end, and re-install. Machine shop fees were pretty light like $150. My heads were already done along with the torque max cam before this upgrade. You'll need gasket set, new head bolts, rear main seal, and other misc items.

When I picked up my truck another guy went down the new short block route. (His crank was broken in two pieces). He was looking at 9K when all was said and done.

By Larry's description of the crank woes in first post, I'm guessing the block is trashed too.

Larry my recommendation is to go with the 4.6 regardless of the route. It's essentially the same cost. There's no such thing as too much HP and torque. And if you don't you will be kicking yourself later.

HTH.

Mark
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  #12  
Old May 1st, 2008, 10:06 PM
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Larry Walton
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Guys, Thanks for the input...it is much appreciated.

Doing some version of conversion to a 4.6 sounds good. I had the "official" talk with my mechanic friend today. No price quote yet as we are still weighing options before moving forward.

He tells me that the picture is not as grim as my cousin ( a kind of anal doomsday automotive mechanical rookie) had led me to believe. Mechanic tells me that the heads are reusable, the crank will VERY LIKELY be salvageable with some machining but we almost certainly need new pistons and at least one connecting rod. He is an awesome master mechanic with a lot of import experience but limited Rover motor experience.

Some basic questions.....

Apparently the block and heads are the same on the 4.0 and the 4.6.... can you just drop in a new crank and some pistons? Will you need a new chip if you do this? Would simply replacing these internal parts get me the benefit of a 4.6 without the chip change needs etc? I have read the threads on the swapping of a 4.0 to a 4.6 and to say the least I am confused. Different chips and sensor placements...apparently 2 kinds pf 4.6 and depending on your vehicle year and version you can have CUX and some other kind of electronics that dictate sensors and such. GEEZ!

What about the cam? Need a new one and would like to get something that matches and gives me more off road performance profile. Would this be called a towing profile? What would you guys recommend for cams if I stay with 4.0 config vs going for a 4.6 config? We need to be sure we are not creating a situation where it is throwing codes all fo the time.

Can this engine be bored over? OR is sleeve replacement the only option? IS the 4.6 configuration a larger bore or just stroke length? With 4.6 config will new connecting rods be needed as well?

Is there someone who my mechanic could speak with that has a clear overall understanding of this? That would be really appreciated if someone would be kind enough to share their detailed knowledge in my time of need.


ANy additional info would be greatly appreciated guys.

THX Larry
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  #13  
Old May 1st, 2008, 11:11 PM
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Mark M
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Answers to some of your questions.

Can you just drop in a new crank and some pistons? Yes, with honing, etc.

Will you need a new chip if you do this? Not required, but if you want the most performance, yes.

Would simply replacing these internal parts get me the benefit of a 4.6 without the chip change needs etc? No. Better, but not fully optimized.

I have read the threads on the swapping of a 4.0 to a 4.6 and to say the least I am confused. Different chips and sensor placements...apparently 2 kinds pf 4.6 and depending on your vehicle year and version you can have CUX and some other kind of electronics that dictate sensors and such. GEEZ! - Your 97 D90 has GEMS system with (2) chips - timing and fuel map.

What about the cam? Need a new one and would like to get something that matches and gives me more off road performance profile. Would this be called a towing profile? Some call them towing cams or low-end torque cams. Check out RPIs site. D&D as well.

What would you guys recommend for cams if I stay with 4.0 config vs going for a 4.6 config? We need to be sure we are not creating a situation where it is throwing codes all fo the time. Many people have been down this road. My truck doesn't throw any codes.

Can this engine be bored over? OR is sleeve replacement the only option? IS the 4.6 configuration a larger bore or just stroke length? 4.0 and 4.6 are same block and piston diameter. Longer stroke.

With 4.6 config will new connecting rods be needed as well? Yes, and new pistons. The skirts are different.

Is there someone who my mechanic could speak with that has a clear overall understanding of this? I think after doing some more research you will find this is not that complicated. If you mechanic can completely rebuild an engine, he's within his means. Depending on where you source your parts, the vendor should be a good source of info to make sure you are on the right path.

HTH.

Mark
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 01:16 AM
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Larry Walton
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Mark thx for the info. OF course I have more questions.

You mention honing is needed to fit the 4.6 style pistons into my block.By honing do you mean boring out or just polishing? Why if they are the same diameter? Can my 4.0 be bored out rather than re sleeved?

RPI makesgood parts for my purposes. They are in the UK....is it difficult or slow to get parts from them to the US? Who is D & D? Anyone have a cam recommendation?

While my mechanic has the skills to do any work it is merely info that is lacking. Sounds like RPI might be a good resource.

THX
Larry
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 06:33 AM
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Well, there is a lot of confusing information out there if you aren't familiar. All '97 D90's came with the 4.0, and came with the GEMS management system. There are GEMS and BOSCH versions of both the 4.0 and the 4.6 and this is where the sensors etc. get confusing. If you stick with a GEMS 4.6 to start you won't have to worry about all that stuff. The CUX system is what was used previous to the GEMS system and is found on earlier Defenders than yours. For example, my '93 110 which has a distributor.

The blocks are the same, and all are based on the Buick engine. Rover didn't stop using it until 2005! I whole-heartedly agree that going to a 4.6 is the way to do it. There is absolutely no sense in putting a new 4.0 in there unless you find a used one that is being given away and just needs to be dropped in. I would follow Mark and a few other's advice and buy all new internals and just turn yours into a 4.6.

The 4.6l will run on the 4.0 chip, but you won't get the full benefit of it. However, if you don't want to drop the coin at the same time at least it will run and be totally drivable. If you are looking for a cam from a place that specializes in LR they will probably just call it an off-road profile or something similar. What you want is something with a lot of low end torque it sounds like. Just make sure they know it is going in a 4.6 as the grind most likely differs from 4.0 to 4.6

I may be off on this, but I believe the bore is the same, the crank, rods and pistons are all different. Either way, if you are going to go the cost of all this I would replace all of them anyway.

P.S. if you or anyone else is looking for more low end torque for free, cut your velocity stacks down a bit. Google the topic and you should find the specs for how much to cut off to optimize it. The velocity stacks are the tubes that stick up into the upper intake plenum for anyone is not used to hearing them called that.
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 09:44 AM
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I don't remember when I had it all apart but what holds those stacks in place? I seem to remember a screw on the underside but I could swear someone told me they were glued in place. I really want to do that.

Larry, It seems to me you are deciding to go with the 4.6. I have the non gems 4.6 in mine and I just did the cam. I used an rp4 cam from RPI. I did not notice any real difference in the low end but there was a tad bit more power btw. 2800 and 3400. When you order these parts take a minute to think that you are ordering now for a the performance profile of a 4.6, not the 4.0. I have zero complaints off-road about my 4.6, especially torque wise. Where the 4.6 did need some love,IMO, was fifth gear on the highway. I do a lot of cross country driving ( I live in NYC and Moab is far away) and the slightest uphill grade would really effect my speed. The rp4 was supposed to help help mid range power. It did a little. I have the stock heads so I don't think I'm maximizing potential but that's my cam report. If you are like me and plan on giving your d-90 to your kids on your death bed somethings to consider when the motor is out.

1. If they are doing any work to the crank, replace the main bearings.
2. If you have not already, replace the oil lines with SS versions and the power steering lines.
3. Don't know what the story is with your cooling issues but might be time to look at the radiator since it's going to be out anyway. (Dont risk running a "new" motor on the hot side)
4. Waterpump. It's 4 seconds to change with the timing cover off the motor. It will be nothing in labor.
5. Replace the motor mounts. Again, quick and easy with the motor out.
6. How's your clutch or is it an auto?
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 09:48 AM
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For honing, stones are used to take the glaze of the cylinder walls. A must if you are fitting new rings, which you should do with new 4.6 pistons. I guess one could bore the cylinders. But then you need oversized pistons, etc. A more costly path as far as I know.

RPI provides fast service. Now US customs may be a different story. D&D website = aluminumv8.com Lots for you to read there. I have the RPI Torque Max cam in my truck, FWIW. If you call up RPI or D&D and explain your situation, they can walk you through what you need, your options, and describe their products. If in your situation, I'd call them both just to understand all the options.

Two other recommendations for you:

1) Don't worry abou the chip for now. Concentrate on the mechanicals and get your truck back up and running. Drive it without the chip for a while. You may find you don't want to drop the extra coin for it. You will know the difference with the 4.6 over the 4.0 even without the chip.

2) Get a hold of Brent at Columbia Rovers and get a pair of his ceramic coated exhaust manifolds. Here in Denver a few people have had minor problems with D110s and D90s running hot after the conversion. After spending all the time and money on essentially a new engine, the last thing you want is to overheat it. Cheap insurance in my mind.

Mark
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 10:01 AM
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Put a Diesel in it.
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revor
Put a Diesel in it.

Aren't they so hard to find these day? Ya, know I've taken some basic measurements and I'm fairly sure that my Dinan v8 from the 540 will fit in the defender. Doesn't someone want to take a stab at dropping a 360 hp BMW v8 in their truck? It's not like it will be expensive.
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflash868
I don't remember when I had it all apart but what holds those stacks in place? I seem to remember a screw on the underside but I could swear someone told me they were glued in place. I really want to do that.
I'm not totally sure. I have heard that there is a set screw and that they are glued, not sure which is true, or maybe both? Anyway, I know a couple techs that did it to their own vehicles, but since I have the JE 4.5l and the stock gearing in my 110 I didn't feel the need. It already makes more than enough low end and if anything I would like a little more on the top, so I left mine alone.

I didn't mention it, but these guys hit the nail on the head. Definitely replace bearings, water pump and engine mounts! I would ridge ream the cylinders (this takes off the lip that is created at the top by the piston rings wearing the cylinder walls down over time) and hone the cylinders as Mark said. You might want to rebuild/replace the oil pump while it is apart too. It is cheap insurance.

(It really starts to add up quick doesn't it?) Actually, this shouldn't be too bad on the wallet. You will pay quite a bit less than a new shortblock and have a better engine to boot IMO b/c you know the history of it and it will be built to your specs.
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