300tdi - Fuel Starvation every AM - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:04 PM
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300tdi - Fuel Starvation every AM

Subject engine: 300tdi, rebuild 3k miles ago, 4 years.

Problem: each morning, the engine will fire right up, but when pressing the accelerator, the revs start to build and then decrease back towards idle. This occurs both by pumping at the pedal and the throttle linkage on the injection pump.

Solution: after about 5 minutes of warming up, the engine will work all day without a single stutter.

https://youtu.be/D0qejJn2o0c

Diagnostics and Thoughts:
-Lines from injection pump to injector are without leaks and tight.
-Diesel is fresh and full
-Unlikely to be sedimenter, lift pump, or filter as I would expect the issue to continue even once warm

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:09 PM
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Robert Davis
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You are likely experiencing fuel starvation due to bleed down.
Most probable cause is a small air leak in the fuel system letting air in so the fuel can bleed down over time and return to the tank.
Likely this will never leak fuel unless you install a 12V pump back by the tank to expose it assuming it is not before the 12V pump location.
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  #3  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:16 PM
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Thanks, RD. How do you suggest I resolve this? Any simple, most probable places to start?
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  #4  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjahx View Post
Thanks, RD. How do you suggest I resolve this? Any simple, most probable places to start?
inspect all your unions from tank to pump, but I'm going to guess you have a tear in the fuel pump diaphragm. others might disagree.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjahx View Post
Thanks, RD. How do you suggest I resolve this? Any simple, most probable places to start?
You could get yourself a 12V pump without any small filter attached and a can of fresh fuel.
Disconnect the line at the tank and block off the feed so it doesn't leak.
Connect a new piece of fuel fine to the inlet side of the 12V pump with the outlet side of the pump pointed at the can opening and make sure you get a steady flow when the pump is powered up.
Next connect the outlet of the pump to the fuel feed line you took off of the tank.
Now the suction side air leaks become pressurized fuel leaks.
You should see a small droplet of fuel form at the source of the old air leak.
Fix it and retest until you have no leaks.

A forum member had the same issue at Uwharrie last year.
He swore he had no leaks and was talking wonder if it's this or that.
People were talking timing and all sorts of non-sense.
Finally he borrowed a fuel pump and within seconds several fittings started dripping.
We did some cutting and clamping and his 300TDI never ran so well as it did without the air leaks.

Following this will either expose your air leak or rule it out as the source of your trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
inspect all your unions from tank to pump, but I'm going to guess you have a tear in the fuel pump diaphragm. others might disagree.
Mark's suggestion could also be a cause.
A pin hole could let air in, but not leak enough to prevent the fuel pump from working when the engine's running, but bleed down overnight.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #6  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:05 AM
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Thanks, RD.

I have found that the source of the leak is at the sedimenter by pressurizing the system. The problem is, this is not the standard 300tdi sedimenter that I have seen:



The vehicle "may have" originally been a 2000 TD5 that had a 300tdi transplanted. Will this work from RN -or- do you, RD, have a supply of them like I have seen in your other threads?

SEDIMENTER TURBO DIESEL, PLH602, NRC9708 - Rovers North - Classic Land Rover Parts



vs.

RD Offering:
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Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:25 AM
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That is a 25 micron fuel filter. A TD5 has an in tank pump, which pushes through that filter. It would not be designed to allow adequate flow when used on the suction side of a lift pump.

If someone installed a 300TDI and ran the suction line through that filter, they do not know what they were doing. I would be suspect on the rest of the conversion and look over it for other bad work. I would wonder if they left the pump in the tank and are sucking through it as well.

You really need to look over the whole fuel system and see what they have done. How is the return run? I'm guessing it is not properly setup to purge air from the system.
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Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
That is a 25 micron fuel filter. A TD5 has an in tank pump, which pushes through that filter. It would not be designed to allow adequate flow when used on the suction side of a lift pump.

If someone installed a 300TDI and ran the suction line through that filter, they do not know what they were doing. I would be suspect on the rest of the conversion and look over it for other bad work. I would wonder if they left the pump in the tank and are sucking through it as well.

You really need to look over the whole fuel system and see what they have done. How is the return run? I'm guessing it is not properly setup to purge air from the system.
There is not limited flow once the system is adequately bled post AM start. The engine pulls without hesitation to faster than I have ever gone in a defender. I will start at the tank and work forward.
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  #9  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjahx View Post
There is not limited flow once the system is adequately bled post AM start. The engine pulls without hesitation to faster than I have ever gone in a defender. I will start at the tank and work forward.
I would replace that filter with a sedimenter assuming you have the stock TDI filter in the engine compartment.
We have sedimenters if you don't have one already.
I would also check the other aspects of the conversion as John suggests.
Drawing fuel through 2 filters may work, but it is putting excess strain on your lift pump assuming the TD5 pusher pump in the tank is not operating (which is likely since it probably produces more pressure than you need for a TDI).

Congratulations on finding the air "leak".
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #10  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjahx View Post
There is not limited flow once the system is adequately bled post AM start. The engine pulls without hesitation to faster than I have ever gone in a defender. I will start at the tank and work forward.
Wait until winter.

It is a very bad design. Like I say, it is most likely not setup to purge the air from the system and that is most likely the cause of your starting issue. For reliable operation, you need the fuel system setup similar in design to a stock 300TDI.

Tube draw from tank > sedimenter > stock lift pump or electric lift pump > Fuel filter, 15 micron or less > injection pump > return line to bottom of tank
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