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  #1  
Old November 24th, 2011, 01:17 AM
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300tdi - correct battery group

my last 100 w/ 200tdi had a 650 cold-cranking amps (CCA) battery which was more than adequate. I don't rememer the "group" or type, but it worked well.

my new 110 has a 300tdi which arrived from its long overseas journey with an anemic 550-CCA lead-acid battery that has several dead cells (only outputting 268 CCA accordingto the test equipment).

Okay, so a new battery it is.
I just want a standard battery that will get me through the cold new england mornings. Will consider double Optimas later when I get more bling hooked up, but for right now that would be a bit of overkill.
The problem I have is (I'm sure many of you have the same issue) is that when you walk into Sears, Pep Boys etc. and are looking for a battery, the pimple-faced shithead behind the counter starts the same standard dialogue...."what year, make and model?" which inevitabely turns his universe off it's axis when he learns that the all-knowing computor suggests that such a vehicle doesn't exist.
In my case, I have a 1986 110 with newer 300tdi and many other part variations.

If I simply knew what battery specifications or group, maybe that would help wipe the smug look off his face and he may put down his happy-meal and help me get a fucking battery!

So, simply put, what is the appropriate amperage and/or battery group for a ROW Defender with a 300tdi?

I left Auto Zone completely frustrated and went to Sears and bought a Champion-brand (which is probably made by Exide anyway) with 850 CCA with the terminals in the correct position. I haven't installed it yet, but may return it based on any better suggestions here. I don't think I could do any damage with more amps, but if there is insufficient amps I know that would hurt the starter motor.
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  #2  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:14 AM
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Exide makes good batteries, but honestly, I'd go to Sears and get a Diehard Platinum. The biggest one that will fit (dimensions are on the Sears website). You shouldn't need another battery (unless you'll have really high loads) for many years.
The 300Tdi starter can draw up to 600amps in really cold weather so a 1/0 battery to starter cable would be a worthwhile upgrade.
And no, you could have a 1m amp battery and the starter won't draw any more than it needs.

10 years ago I considered Optima, but went with the better Exide spiral cell. Today, well in '09 when I bought a Platinum, I wouldn't even consider an Optima because of all the bad reports since they got bought by Interstate or Johnson (I can't remember which) and moved their plants to Mexico.
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  #3  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:18 AM
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850 CCA would start a bulldozer

Most automotive batteries are Group 26 (sometimes theres a letter after it but it doesn't matter)

Id say what you have will get the job done very well.


Your starter is protected by a fuse, you wont damage it as long as its fused correctly.

------ Follow up post added November 24th, 2011 08:22 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antichrist View Post
And no, you could have a 1m amp battery and the starter won't draw any more than it needs.

Slightly un true - if theres a short, or a siezed starter yes it can draw alot more than its typical full load amps (FLA) or draw its locked rotor amps for a longer than typical period of time (usually about 6x the FLA)

Key is fusing it at the correct amperages so you dont light the wires on fire. (the whole point of overcurrent protection is to protect the wiring, not the loads necessarily).
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  #4  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:34 AM
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I have the Sears pm1 marine battery. It is 1150 cca and a beast
Dual top terminals. It is the largest single batt you can fit and worth every penny

http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sears.com%2Fdiehard-marine-battery-platinum-pm-1-group-size-31m%2Fp-02850131000P&ei=gUfOTvm_E8ja0QGgs6AL&usg=AFQjCNGEO q2mvWftcm8ptBj_beKv0e2Arw
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  #5  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:01 AM
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With batteries, it's not size so much as weight. Weight means more lead which means more reserve. There are two kinds of battery, starting and deep cycle. The start battery is like a sprinter, gives a burst of energy for a short period but has no staying power. The deep cycle has more lead so that you have a much longer reserve, it's a marathon runner. If you run a lot of accessories or a winch you definitely want a deep cycle battery.
Buying quality is your best option. Look for Deka, Trojan, or Odyssey. Highly recommend the AGM type.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:04 AM
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Thanks guys
I'm going to consider the Sears marine battery actually. I haven't installed the Champion battery yet.
Also I heard good things about the Sears gel-cell batteries.

BTW, I've definately have 1-guage wire running from the battery. It's nearly a 1/2" in diameter and you can barely bend it!
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antichrist View Post
I'd go to Sears and get a Diehard Platinum. ... I wouldn't even consider an Optima because of all the bad reports since they got bought by Interstate or Johnson (I can't remember which) and moved their plants to Mexico.
X2. I have dual yellow top Optimas. My aux battery is already losing load after a few years. When it dies, I'm getting Sears Diehard Platinum.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
850 CCA would start a bulldozer

Most automotive batteries are Group 26 (sometimes theres a letter after it but it doesn't matter)

Id say what you have will get the job done very well.


Your starter is protected by a fuse, you wont damage it as long as its fused correctly.

It is? Where is that fuse? It must be a pretty big one, wonder where they hid it.

BTW the letters usually refer to the post configuration, which is important if you don't have 12" of slack in your battery cables.
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  #9  
Old November 24th, 2011, 11:46 AM
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I use the same battery that goes in my 1985 BMW 524td. The 524 has a 6 cyl engine & 2.4 displacement. I buy it at AutoZone. It's a 49-DL with 850CCA. Two year free replacement, 7 years pro-rated. Costs about $100. I've had good success with them
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Old November 24th, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
Slightly un true - if theres a short, or a siezed starter yes it can draw alot more than its typical full load amps (FLA) or draw its locked rotor amps for a longer than typical period of time (usually about 6x the FLA)

Key is fusing it at the correct amperages so you dont light the wires on fire. (the whole point of overcurrent protection is to protect the wiring, not the loads necessarily).
I was talking normally. If you're going to talk failures all bets are off and if there's an internal short the starter is already messed up. A large amperage battery didn't cause it, which is what I think he was asking. In any case, that short would "need" all the amperage it could get.

I've never seen a fused starter cable on a Land Rover and in 35 years of fiddling with them never needed one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Buying quality is your best option. Look for Deka, Trojan, or Odyssey. Highly recommend the AGM type.
I'm sure you and most people know, but the Diehard Platinums are Odyssey batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
BTW, I've definately have 1-guage wire running from the battery. It's nearly a 1/2" in diameter and you can barely bend it!
To be clear, #1 is not the same as 1/0.
At a 600amp draw, which of course isn't the norm, #1 is barely adequate giving you about a 0.5v volt drop. 1/0 would be 0.4v. 2/0 would be 0.3v
Once I move further north, hopefully next year, I'll be installing a 2/0 starter cable.
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  #11  
Old November 24th, 2011, 05:45 PM
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Ok let me restate. Most vehiclee have fuses for the starter. I forgot we were dealing with british electrics here. Im surprised they didnt use pennies between the fuse clips in these trucks

Either way. The battery u have is fine
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  #12  
Old November 24th, 2011, 07:53 PM
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I have never seen a fuse for the main starting circuit on any car. Not saying they are not out there, but the following cars I have owned have not had fuses:

2005 Avalanche
2003 Siverado SS
2005 VW GTI
1992 Jetta Diesel
1989 Mustang
1984 Rabbit GTI
1984 Jetta Diesel
1968 Camaro
1966 El Camino
1965 Nova
1964 Chevelle

plus some others

and my 86 Defender.

I went with the Optima. I can look for the group size when I get home, but I went with the largest one they make that is just a top post.

I also replaced the cables with 2 gauge cables. Some will say that by doing that you risk burning the cables up if the starter solenoid sticks on, but I prefer a higher current capacity and lower resistance during cranking.

Also, other than speciality battery companies like Braille, all the batteries are made by the same two companies. The "Powersport" battery I bought at Autozone is the same as the factory battery in my Harley, except it is grey instead of black, missing the Bar and Shield, and didn't cost an extra $80.

Just look at the specs for CCA (bigger is better) and what will physically fit your car.

-Best of luck!
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Old November 24th, 2011, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
Ok let me restate. Most vehiclee have fuses for the starter.
Can you provide a link to some?

Quote:
Originally Posted by red64chevelle View Post
Also, other than speciality battery companies like Braille, all the batteries are made by the same two companies.
I wouldn't consider Exide to be a specialty battery company. I wouldn't even consider Odyssey or Deka to be.
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  #14  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by red64chevelle View Post
I also replaced the cables with 2 gauge cables. Some will say that by doing that you risk burning the cables up if the starter solenoid sticks on, but I prefer a higher current capacity and lower resistance during cranking.
2 gauge??? That is a very small cable for a starter.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antichrist View Post
Can you provide a link to some?

I wouldn't consider Exide to be a specialty battery company. I wouldn't even consider Odyssey or Deka to be.
So, Braille is made by them? Damn, GNB and Exide are one now. So besides them, who is left in the US? We have had to change out Submarine batteries to a new glass mat design due to GNB/Exide deciding to get out of the business. No more flooded Lead/Acid batteries for us.

Most companies moved off-shore due to the EPA regs on lead and acid. We don't have any problems with people south of the US dying of lead poisoning, but god forbid they do it in the US.

------ Follow up post added November 24th, 2011 08:42 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
2 gauge??? That is a very small cable for a starter.

Yep, it is over 1/4" thick, and can carry about 250 amps. It is often used as a grounding lead on Arc welders. The factory cable looked to be about a 4 or 6 gauge.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by red64chevelle View Post
The factory cable looked to be about a 4 or 6 gauge.
Show me! I don't believe it. I just checked my factory cable and it is 1/0. You are not starting a truck with 4 or 6 gauge.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:10 PM
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As of just a very few years ago Exide made their own batteries and at least their AGM's were made in the US. I haven't checked lately.
I don't mean that Braille is made by Exide, I was just saying Exide was mfg.

Quote:
Yep, it is over 1/4" thick, and can carry about 250 amps. It is often used as a grounding lead on Arc welders. The factory cable looked to be about a 4 or 6 gauge.
The carry capacity is determined by the voltage and length of the run, you can't just say "250 amps".
#2 wouldn't do too well on a welder if you're running 250amps.

For petrol engines #2 should be ok (depending on what the 2.25/2.5 starters draw, I can't remember).
Not for diesels though.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antichrist View Post
Can you provide a link to some?
.


Quote:
Originally Posted by red64chevelle View Post
I have never seen a fuse for the main starting circuit on any car. Not saying they are not out there, but the following cars I have owned have not had fuses:

2005 Avalanche
2003 Siverado SS
2005 VW GTI
1992 Jetta Diesel
1989 Mustang
1984 Rabbit GTI
1984 Jetta Diesel
1968 Camaro
1966 El Camino
1965 Nova
1964 Chevelle

plus some others

and my 86 Defender.

I went with the Optima. I can look for the group size when I get home, but I went with the largest one they make that is just a top post.

I also replaced the cables with 2 gauge cables. Some will say that by doing that you risk burning the cables up if the starter solenoid sticks on, but I prefer a higher current capacity and lower resistance during cranking.
Pontiac G6, My mustang??? i guess its not as common as I thought though after doing a little search.

Typically it wil be a 30 or 40 amp fuse.

30A @ 12vDC is 360w

360W is about 1/2 hp Which is your typical petrol motor starter. I'd imagine a diesel would be higher due to compression

Almost all overcurrent protection devices (fuses and circuit breakers) allow for motor inrush (~6x Full load amps) for a short period of time (anywhere from 1/4 - a couple secs depending on the time curves). Often this trip curve is adjustable either by the magnetic or instantaneous setting on a c/b, or by the characterstics of the fuse element (time delay). Therefore you could pull 100A through a 30A fuse for a very short period of time before it blows.

Heat is a result of resistance encountered of current flowing through a conductor. If the wire is too small for the amount of current being allowed to travel through it by the upstream overcurrent protection device, it will over heat and possibly risk fire. This is how fuses work. If you have 50A running through a 30A fuse, over time the fuse element will heat up and then melt, breaking the flow of current. This is why it is always important to protect your wiring with the proper fuse or cicuit breaker. You want the element in the fuse to melt, NOT YOUR WIRING!. You can always run larger than necessary wiring, but not the opposite.

As far voltage drop, running a larger than necessary cable for such a short distance (like between your battery and starter) is totally useless. You're only going to see voltage drop over long distances as the resitance builds up. (I'm talking hundreds of feet here).


now - what was the question? or yea I'm sure battery is just fine
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  #19  
Old November 25th, 2011, 08:05 AM
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I put an Interstate mtp34 in my 300tdi 110 because that's what we have at the dealership. On a cold morning when I use the glow plugs it is slow to crank, but it always starts, so far at least. I'll probably add a block heater this winter.
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  #20  
Old November 25th, 2011, 09:14 AM
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Bossman, You're confusing the relay circuit with the motor circuit.
You're not going to have a 29amp starter, which is what 360 watts @ 12v is.
The Pontiac PG260 starter has a 1.4kw motor which is a bit over 116amps @ 12v. That's not going to be fused at 40amps.

Volt drop is typically measured per foot and every foot is going to induce voltage drop. It's a measurable increase as the distance increases and/or as the cable size decreases. At 116amps the overall volt drop is .12v for #2 @ 5'. It's .23v at 10'.
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