300TDI Boost Pressure - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 08:56 PM
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Charles
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300TDI Boost Pressure

Guys,
Hoping for a little info from someone with a 300TDI. I am monkeying around with mounting a GT2256V turbo on one. I believe this is the same turbo that was on the 2.8L int'l engines.

it is a bit of a trick to graft one on, they are a vacuum operated unit, so one must convert to pressure actuated and then build a actuation system that actually does what is needed. That is where I am.

I am hoping someone has some boost vs. RPM #'s for a stock 300TDI. I would like to see how I am doing in comparison.

The current device/settings I am running produce:

2PSI at 1100 RPM

6PSI at 1500 RPM

11 PSI at 2000 RPM

17 PSI at 2300 RPM (I have the turbo set to limit boost to 17 PSI currently)

How am I doing?

Thanks.

Charles
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  #2  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 11:41 PM
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Ethan
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Charles, I'd recommend doing a little reading over at vwdiesel.net if you are interested in a more sophisticated controller for your VGT. I bolted a hybrid GT1749A up to my little 1.6 Golf expecting to have great results with a pressure actuator, only to find I could actually produce more power through a lower boost pressure (opening the vanes of the turbo), simply on the basis of back pressure. There are several builders over on that site that have incorporated either a linkage system and a pressure actuator, or a (throttle) cable system and the actuator. In these setups, the larger the load is placed on the injection pump (I.E. the more your foot is into it), the more the vanes of the turbo are pulled closed (spinning it faster, creating more boost) until a desired boost lever is reached, at which time the pressure actuator pushes the the vanes open again... Should you decide to ultimately go with just a pressure actuator, be sure to keep an eye on your EGT's, because these turbo's (when the vanes are closed) are a pretty good exhaust restriction. In my experimenting, when using a a boost can, I actually had better performance characteristics controlling my boost can/turbo using manifold back pressure than I did using manifold pressure (but of course the actuator would never hold up to those conditions!).

Out of curiosity, how do the heads and head gaskets of 200 and 300TDI's tolerate tuning?
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  #3  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 01:01 AM
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Turbos do not really work this way. Boost pressure is dependant on exhaust velocity and temperature, not rpm.

If you are in neutral at 1100rpm or full load at 1100rpm, the boost will vary wildly between the two.

Do you want "no load" numbers?
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  #4  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 08:15 AM
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Jason Lavender
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Sidebar - Ed, are you a boost guru? I've never messed with mine, but was going to put in a new set of injectors and then *maybe* mess with the boost.
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  #5  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 08:51 AM
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Hey jason, welcome back!

I'm not a turbo guru, but I know something about turbos in technical detail and theory.

I think there are some other guys on here who know a lot more than I do regarding the rover turbo diesels. Maybe the guys with the word "turbo" in their names
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  #6  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 11:19 AM
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I have a 2.8 and those numbers seem about right. my turbo is factory tuned at 16psi. the boost ramp is going to directly relate to how you have your boost preload spring adjusted.

BTW, I'm sure it was a typo, but vacuum has no part in turbo performance on this turbo. the VGT is driven by boost pressure signal.
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Old August 23rd, 2011, 02:38 PM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
BTW, I'm sure it was a typo, but vacuum has no part in turbo performance on this turbo. the VGT is driven by boost pressure signal.
I think he was referring to the stock application. Mercedes and VW/Audi (as I'm sure many others do as well) both use a vacuum solenoid controlled by the ECM using pulse width modulation to vary the pitch/angles of the vanes. On these, the "wastegate" can is backwards from the traditional type, being that the wastegate rod is longest in it's resting position, then as the vacuum signal is applied, the rod becomes shorter, pulling the the vanes closed and spooling the snail up.
It's interesting how different companies achieve the same results. I know many Dodge Sprinters actually have an electronic solenoid (controlled again by PWM) to move the rod. When I first began looking at these turbos, one of my first information quests was regarding the Int'l 2.8, simply for the reason that they used a pressure signal rather than boost. Personally, I'd be really curious about what the wastegate actuators of the old Dodge Daytona's looked like circa 1990, as this model had a VNT too. From what I've gathered, it used both manifold vacuum AND pressure to achieve results. Unfortunately many of these pressure activated applications (like the Daytona for instance) dropped the VNT due to "problems with the turbocharger" (wikipedia) which I bet is code for "the vanes were sticking". I thought I may have read something about International abandoning that method too, but don't hold me to that. Sticky vanes has always been a problem (in both actuator cases) with VNT/VGT's. A turbo rebuilder told me one of the biggest problems they face with the sticky vanes is in fact due to EGR, but I've seen too many stick on non egr cars (like my old Golf) to believe that is the only culprit. In the next breath he told me that "one of the big turbo manufacturers" was soon to release a new style VGT that wouldn't face that problem as it operated differently. I can't wait to see what the future holds for these turbo's, but I can't wait to see it and hear it in action!
Back to the point, I believe his boost numbers simply from reving his engine without load. In my application, with stock injectors and a 25 y/o injection pump, I can easily make 8-10psi with a quick rev. in neutral!
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  #8  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbofan View Post
Back to the point, I believe his boost numbers simply from reving his engine without load. In my application, with stock injectors and a 25 y/o injection pump, I can easily make 8-10psi with a quick rev. in neutral!
I tightend up my pre-load in the boost diaphragm as I'm experimenting with economy, so my boost is slightly delayed now. Before adjustment, I would get boost almost instantly as well.
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Old August 23rd, 2011, 03:15 PM
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Good call! I'm sure you're economy will improve. If I put an aneroid on my IP, I've though about twisting the boost pin for more power, but stick a boost controller (simple knob style) in line to the injection pump, so I could run it super lean on the highway for the sake of economy, but be able to run powered up with the simple twist of the knob. This way I could even run a compromise, where enrichment wouldn't occur until boost was much higher than it was normally. Diesel tuning rules. I love a mechanical motor that can be adjusted by the user to their specs!
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  #10  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 09:44 PM
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Charles
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Wow, what a lot of replies. Thanks to all.
Hopefully I can address it all in one reply.

1. These are full (or close to full) load boost numbers. Taken in 4th gear on the large hill on the 2 lane near the house. Steep enough hill for nice slow acceleration at full throttle, but still manageable in 4th.

2. Turbofan's explanation of vacuum as the stock application is correct.

3. I will read some more over at VWDiesel.net. I have read much of what is on tdiclub, but honestly I am getting better results with the pressure system than what I was getting with the more complex pressure+throttle position system I was trying. I an an EGT gauge with an alarm set at 1250. Currently have the fueling set to limit me to 1242 (gauge has a peak setting, was aiming to limit at 1200, but it is fine for now.).

4. Tuning the 300TDI is somewhat new to me. I have a good contact for general TDI tuning across the pond (useless for VNT turbos though), who routinely sets them up in between 18 and 20 psi, so that is what I am aiming for. He is very confident/comfortable with this range. He is an excellent mechanic and a farmer, we worked together and he usually does not lead me wrong...

5. It sounds like you guys are getting much better boost numbers that I am based on the 8-10 psi with no load. No load I will get somewhere around 3-4 with a blip on the throttle. Sounds like I need to do some more work to get this turbo set where it needs to be.

Thanks.

Charles
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  #11  
Old August 24th, 2011, 01:27 AM
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17 PSI is perfect stock reading for a good turbo and a healthy engine. My VNT (from an HS2.8TGV) does 17 no load and peaks of 22/23 at full throttle. Here´s a video of it.



And does 110 MPH with some "extras" and fine tunning...



Some other videos performing ... and you can hear it

Sand...



Muddy floor with wrong tyres...





And now with the right ones...



Cheers,
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  #12  
Old August 24th, 2011, 08:00 AM
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Santiago, what changes did you make to tuning? 110 mph in a 110? that 1.2 TC must have really made a difference How much did you adjust the fueling screw? What kind of economy are you getting mpg or mpl?
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  #13  
Old August 24th, 2011, 09:53 AM
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Mark, can we off-topic this? even though the boost pressure question is allready answered I guess.


Cheers,
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  #14  
Old August 24th, 2011, 12:16 PM
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Agreed! sorry for hijack
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  #15  
Old August 24th, 2011, 05:44 PM
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Mark: If Charles lets us I can extend on my 300tdi tunning info here, or if not we can open a new thread.

Cheers,
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  #16  
Old August 24th, 2011, 09:47 PM
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By all means, put it here if you would like to. I am not a member of the Hi-Jack police, and I will certainly enjoy learning from you.

Thanks.
Charles
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