300 tdi slow to start - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old October 21st, 2009, 11:47 PM
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Todd Miller
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300 tdi slow to start

My 300 tdi has become harder to start especially in colder weather. Over the past few months I have replaced the cambelt and the glow plugs. I also have a new yellow top Optima. the motor turns over but it takes a few turns before it fires up and then when it does start it runs a bit rough for a few seconds like you need to rev it up. I do have a glow plug timer which I assume is working, the light comes on when you turn the key and then after about 10 or 15 seconds it goes out.
Just wondering what I should be looking for.
thanks
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  #2  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 06:22 AM
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Clean filters in the fuel line, have the injectors checked. Did you notice this after the timing belt was changed? When you changed the timing belt, did you have the injector pump checked for wear - I am assuming this engine has some miles on it Anyway, the last engine I got from Canada - the injectors, the injector pump and the starter all had to be changed.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:31 AM
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I would also check that the glow plugs are getting power, if they are then I would also check that they are working.
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  #4  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:02 AM
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X2 on the Glow Plugs. The light indicator will come on but I've found that doesnt mean anything. Test the glows by pulling them and grounding them (very well) to the truck someplace. Test all 4. If they're working, you'll see it.

After the glows, filters are also something to check for. Have you drained off the filter tap for water recently?

When you did the timing belt, did you use the fixture pins to lock everything in position?
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:22 AM
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these tdi's should start fine with out glow unless it is really cold. But check them for sure, at least check if they are getting power.

X2 replace filters and check timing. Also check your air filter.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:48 AM
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I will check the glow plugs seems like the easiest thing to do first. will also change the fuel filter. I have a new air filter. As for the timing, personally I do think it is a bit off. I have posted about that before. so if the timing is slightly off would it affect the starting more when it is cold? When the engine is warm it starts fine. What about the starter, could it just be getting tired? not spinning the engine fast enough?

thx.

Follow-up Post:

Mark when I changed the timing belt I was unable to lock the flywheel because there was no hole for the pin. locked the other stuff.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:53 AM
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todd

I doubt GA is colder than DC. I have yet to need glows (mine aren't hooked up yet) and it starts every time on the first blip of the key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discotdi
My 300 tdi has become harder to start especially in colder weather. Over the past few months I have replaced the cambelt and the glow plugs.
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  #8  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Direct injection motors are particularly prone to hard starting when the fuel source (pump) is out of sync with the timing sequence in the engine, more so when it's cold, because an out of time condition will reduce the sequence for proper atomization of the fuel and the time to ignite the charge for combustion. The piston has one optimum place in the timing sequence to combust the diesel fuel. When starting the engine cold, the flash point of the fuel is acheived when everthing is pumping, injecting and timed correctly. If it's not, it will take several cranks to overcome things such as low fuel pressure (pump), poor fuel dispersion (injector) or an out of time condition, or a combination there of depending upon how may miles on the components. Dont overlook the obvious though. Check for water in the filter and let it drain off or replace the filter. Try using Stanadyne injection addative. If it noticably improves your staring right away, it may be just water. Run a tank or two with the Stanadyne, then dont use it for the next fill up and see if the condition returns. If it does, your into the compoenets.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 12:44 PM
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Todd Miller
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my old 200tdi used to start with just a blip of the key also, and without glow plugs. If I hadn't owned that Defender before I probably would not even know that this engine is not starting just right. My jeep CRD is a bit of a slow starter too and of course Jeep says all is well no problems found, until it goes out of warranty!

Mark thanks for that very in depth but concise write up of the starting procedure. I will change the filter and get some of that additive. I do fear that it is a timing issue and I really have no idea how to solve that. may have to live with it. I am sure it is not good for the engine though. Are the injectors and IP Bosch? if so I suppose a Bosch diesel shop could check it out?
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  #10  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 12:48 PM
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Yes, it is a Bosch injection system.

Another cause of this condition is low compression...
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  #11  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 01:57 PM
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Todd Miller
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yes i think I will check the compression when checking the glow plugs.
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  #12  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:11 PM
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Todd, 200 Tdi is a fine motor too and when they are running right, the blip of the key is generally all they do need. Even up north here, five winters of test driving shows 5-10 sec of glow time and it'll fire at -15 deg just fine.

BTW quick troubleshooting technique (which you may already have been through) try certain lower cost iterations of repair with the system in magnitudes of cost; 1.) filters, air clogs, water etc, Addative 2.) glow plugs only 3.) Injectors only 4.) Pump only This last component of course being the most expensive and if you have to go to that length, I strongly suggest th ereplacement of your timing belt/pullys.

After going through this, once due to water contamination which took out the injectors and pump and twice just due to just milage (50-60K miles) I would lend my opinion that RDS has always seemed to have the best prices for the factory parts. And yes, I would agree the original component design seemed to be Bosch. be careful though because just like the American iron market, there's probably aftermarketeers in the pump and injector business. I first noticed thi sin my 6.5 litre GMC. Original equipment was Bosch. What I got was unmarket and turned out to be made in China. Back they went. Give o'l George a call. He's got the stuff on the shelf.
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  #13  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 07:27 PM
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Todd, re-reading some of your symptoms, I just noticed your follow up comment re: The Flywheel timing slot.

Do you mean to say the hole in the bell housing is not there (?) or the slot, (which is really just a cross cut on the diameter of the Flywheel) is not there? I've never seen either condition and I'll also say that the timing mark found on the timing belt housing as it lines up w/ the crankshaft pully mark itself is an unreliable reference point. Ideally, the timing pin screwed through the threaded hole in the bell housing should favor the left side of the slot in the flywheel cutout (as your facing the engine from the front) for ideal timing.

How did you set this mark?
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  #14  
Old October 22nd, 2009, 08:07 PM
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Based on some past discussion with Todd I think he is has a conversion that perhaps used the V8 bellhousing and adaptor as M&D has sold in the past. I've had to deal with these a couple of times in the past and there is no place to key into the flywheel and it makes timing a pain in the arse.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:17 PM
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Todd Miller
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As Matt says this seems to be the case. I must admit that when I said " I" changed the cambelt etc. I paid someone to do it. I am not mechanically inclined for such things. The first guy made a wreck of it and the second guy managed to get the timing to specs or very very near w/out the benefit of the bellhousing timing slot. He told me it involved an in depth look at the service manual, a live chicken, Bob Marley music, fire, and some beads. I am not sure of the order. I am going to try the "easy" stuff first and them move on from there. I am also going to adjust my valve clearances because I have not done this in 30k miles.
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  #16  
Old October 23rd, 2009, 10:08 AM
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I think I was witness to such a pagan ritual as you describe here on one of my trips to the sub continent, performed by a couple of Pro Grapplers that looked like Apes. The one had a 5 lb. hand sledge and the other guy was wearing a wide leather belt adorned with a small selection crow bars and grappling hooks. When the one guy ran into a tolerance fit issue, taking something apart or putting it together, the other guy would whack him (not the parts) with his sledge till he stopped grunting. This appeared to be their SOP.

That was one place I was glad not to have driven the Rover to in the event of a breakdown

OK so based on my understanding of the timing sequence on these engines and what you describe in the way of a couple of attempts to set the timing, I'd be hesitant to just say establish an accurate timing mark from referencing actual TDC with #1 piston and then moving and marking the crank pully to it's true timing position (dont have the spec w/ me here at work). I would just suggest to you that based on what you describe, the timing settings in this engine could well be in question. I would suggest going through the series of progressive cost steps and if nothing is doing the trick, sounds to me like someone is going to have to pull the front cover and re-time this engine from actual mechanical properties. Sounds complex but it's not really. All it takes is time. Only think you'll need..or someone will need once they get there is a belt tensioner guage calibrated in Nm (ideally) or std. equivalent to set proper belt tension. With the front cover off, the injection pump and cam pullys are well marked for reference. It's the relationship of these pullys with the crank position that somtimes goes awry or is set incorrectly, refrencing the crank pully and not the flywheel mark which is mechanically more accurate. I have to say though, I'm not familiar with the V8 bellhousing to Tdi installation. If your present bellhousing would allow for something like a 1/2" hole bored through it's base centerline, aligned with the flywheel, I'd suggest that if your going to keep this truck for any length of time this is something you consider having done. Timing belts are good for 60K miles. You'll be in there again soon. Have the hole bored, tapped to match the timing set typically sold for these engines. Keep us posted on how things go.
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  #17  
Old October 23rd, 2009, 08:00 PM
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It's pretty damn hard to screw the timing up if you have the front cover off. Sure you have to pay attention when timing off a 2 (or so ) inch crank pulley ..... but ir is very possible.

With the M&D conversion the V8 flywheel is used so there is no possibility of installing a timing mark. short of pulling the head to determine true TDC and marking, machining the flywheel to have a point of reference. It may not be a bad idea in this case. A head gasket is only a couple of hr job. Get a good reference on TDC , time the thing while you are at it......drill through the bellhousing and into the flywheel so at least something can be inserted (drill bit) next time you need to time it.
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new expansion complete. Not only are we the only Rover shop in Eliot Maine...now we're also the biggest.

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Old October 23rd, 2009, 08:52 PM
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Matt, you really should at least put up a gallery of photos on your site
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Old October 24th, 2009, 06:29 PM
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Don't have time for that.......I build trucks, and if I'm not doing that I'm actually getting one dirty.

That silly web page does it's job as in it gets people to contact me instead of just looking at photos. That said, I am going to buckle to the pressure and there will be some sort of gallery soon. As soon as someone else does it for me.
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new expansion complete. Not only are we the only Rover shop in Eliot Maine...now we're also the biggest.

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  #20  
Old October 24th, 2009, 10:58 PM
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You can use pressure on a valve against the piston and a dial gauge to find top dead center on these engines with the conversion pieces. Similar to finding top dead center when degreeng a camshaft. I may have taken pictures of the process at some point. If I can dig up pics I will post them.

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