300 Tdi Low-End Boost/IP Tuning - Defender Source
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Old July 15th, 2014, 09:23 AM
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300 Tdi Low-End Boost/IP Tuning

So, after 4-hrs of tuning yesterday, I still feel as though I'm not seeing enough spooling of the turbo through the lower RPM range. (and YES, I've read tons of material and posts on this topic and did my searches, so I'm not simply being lazy and asking, I'm sort of perplexed as to what's going to get my turbo spooling earlier and creating higher boost levels)


First a little backround info: New timing belt at stock timing setting, new Allisport full-length IC, silicone hose kit, EGT/Boost gauge installed. So I've got all the proper bits to get my tune on without melting things. After a long 60-minute highway run at pretty high speed (60-75mph avg), when I opened the bonnet when I got home, that inlet pipe from IC to manifold was cool to the touch - man, that full-length IC really does its job well!!! I mean, I'm not complaining about wide-open flat out performance. It really cranks on the highway. EGTs never get above 900-950 and I had it up to 85mph before backing off because crosswinds had me white knuckled. It's really the low-to-mid-range power curve that seems flat and I'm just not hearing the turbo spool until RPMs really build and the boost never really climbs as high as it could. Also performed a complete evap-smoke test to test for any leaks in the intake, plumbing and boost signal lines. No leaks.


The IP seemed to respond radically with small adjustments to the diaphragm and while I have no idea if someone had played with the diaphragm before it now sits 1/2 hr (on a clock) clockwise of where it was when I opened it up, the smoke screw advanced 1/2 turn and the star wheel clockwise 1/2 turn. THese settings are what I arrived at AFTER it was backed off a bit to a level a smoke that was tolerable. THings are a bit more responsive and it's faster at top end speed and EGTs are only up marginally, say topping out at 950 now whereas before they topped out at 850-875.


The problem (at least what I think is the problem) is that it's not making enough boost to keep up with additional fueling, particularly at low RPM. I understand the full length IC has a bit more resistance and I was seeing a full 1.0-BAR at full load throttle BEFORE the IC upgrade, now under the same conditions it barely climbs past 0.50-BAR. Adding more fuel didn't help produce more boost (at least at lower RPMs) and only increased smoke to an obnoxious level.


Wastegate signal is off the back of the manifold (along with boost gauge signal), so it's getting the signal from the correct place. The IP signal is still off of the "T" right below the turbo, but I don't see how that would be any different as boost pressure should be greatest right after the turbo.
I'd start investigating the wastegate for a leak (possibly sticking a bit open) but I'm not hearing it spool early so I'm guessing that it's not purging boost, just not making it enough of it. I understand that fuel and exhaust pressure is needed to make boost, but again, adding fuel didn't really get the turbo to spool earlier or produce a full 1-BAR, just got smokey.


What's the one thing you guys would do first to get that turbo spooling more quickly and producing more boost throughout the range? low RMP (smoke screw) turned in more?
Shortening the wastegate actuator rod will only delay the opening of the wastegate, right? so that's only a blowby at full boost? or does that help the turbo spool earlier?
It just seems that its not making enough boost to warrant more fuel, but I also understand that the two are sort of related (circular reference if you will) in a way.
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  #2  
Old July 15th, 2014, 09:34 AM
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900 is still very low-ie stock setting kind of temp, is that just a number you see as you drive around town or is that a 5th gear climbing a substantial grade with it floored number ?. The turbo is spinning if the engine is running. What air cleaner setup are you using ?
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Old July 15th, 2014, 09:39 AM
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stock air cleaner. I even tried a run without the air cleaner to see if there was too much resistance pre-turbo. Nothing. Its getting clean unrestricted flow to the turbo.


I agree that 900-950 is low based on what I've read, but adding fuel only got smokey and didn't get the turbo spooling any faster. 900-950 was only seen after long uphill grade on highway at full throttle going 75-80mph.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 09:43 AM
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you may want to advance the IP timing a bit. Now that you've added more fuel, IP needs a little more headstart to squirt it into the cylinders.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 09:45 AM
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I was hoping I didn't have to go this route, but maybe that's what's going on. I'll have to borrow the timing kit.......AGAIN!
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Old July 15th, 2014, 10:03 AM
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you can get a lock and pin from ebay for about $20, and you'll use it quite a bit. You don't need the whole kit to adjust your timing! You're not pulling the pump.

I just advanced mine a bit yesterday in 30 minutes. I've done it in 15 before. lock the flywheel at TDC, remove the inspection cover, put the pin in, loosen the 3 10mm bolts a little, then get your (22mm?) socket on that IP dognut and advance clockwise just a bit til the pin is jammed against the well, then pull the pin out and go a TAD bit more past that (few degrees). Big difference. and you're EGT's will drop again. If you advance to far, you're idle on startup will get a bit rough, so time it again and back it off a little (but doubt you'll go too far as first time you do it you will be ultra conservative). lock the 3 bolts down, pull the flywheel lock out, and fire it up. If it idle fine (should be a little louder), then go for a test drive.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 10:11 AM
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actually thats overkill. There is no need to lock the crank or the injection pump. They aren't going to get out of time since the belt is on. all you need to do is loosten the three bolts and turn the nut slightly, tighten, try it. Repeat go for slightly more. The bolt holes aren't elongated much so you would be hard pressed to mess anything up.
Your problem isn't boost its timing and tune.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
you can get a lock and pin from ebay for about $20, and you'll use it quite a bit. You don't need the whole kit to adjust your timing! You're not pulling the pump.

I just advanced mine a bit yesterday in 30 minutes. I've done it in 15 before. lock the flywheel at TDC, remove the inspection cover, put the pin in, loosen the 3 10mm bolts a little, then get your (22mm?) socket on that IP dognut and advance clockwise just a bit til the pin is jammed against the well, then pull the pin out and go a TAD bit more past that (few degrees). Big difference. and you're EGT's will drop again. If you advance to far, you're idle on startup will get a bit rough, so time it again and back it off a little (but doubt you'll go too far as first time you do it you will be ultra conservative). lock the 3 bolts down, pull the flywheel lock out, and fire it up. If it idle fine (should be a little louder), then go for a test drive.


Thanks Mark.
Remember my old thread a month ago about the timing belt? well, the timing was retarded and now it's at OEM setting. It already got "clackier" and louder just from that. Advancing slightly (possibly a 8mm drill bit instead of the 9mm pin) would be where I'd start.


Do you really think that would result in more boost? (getting fuel into cylinder earlier)
Does that allow you to push more fuel into the system (either by turning up the smoke screw, diaphragm and/or star wheel) without the high levels of smoke I was seeing, thus creating boost?
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Old July 15th, 2014, 10:40 AM
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yes. it has more time to burn in the cylinder before tdc. that also means less fuel burning in the exhaust on way to turbo without any compression to convert heat to work.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:08 AM
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perfect explanation Mark and thanks also Doug.
Sounds easy enough:
1) remover timing inspection cover;
2) insert 8mm drill bit into hole
3) put 22mm socket (does it have to be a breaker bar?) on the dognut;
4) gently/slowly loosen the three set screws/bolts;
5) turn IP (clockwise) until the slot hits the drillbit;
6) test / repeat if necessary


is that the basic procedure? I don't need to lock the flywheel because the timing belt will keep everything together.


Just don't let the IP slip past the hole whereby you'd have to rotate it twice to get the timing back, correct?
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:16 AM
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if you simply leave the truck in a low gear with parking brake on it will serve to hold the crank while you bump the wrench with the palm of your hand. No need for a pin lock on the crank for this adjustment.
In my experience a noisy idle makes for a good runner.

------ Follow up post added July 15th, 2014 11:19 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post


Just don't let the IP slip past the hole whereby you'd have to rotate it twice to get the timing back, correct?
Incorrect. The injection pump slots are not long enough to get you in that much trouble. I don't use a pin of any kind when advancing timing. There would be no reason to turn the engine two revolutions if you felt you went to far.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:24 AM
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yep. as for the socket, when you loosen the 3x 10mm bolts on the IP pulley, the resistance you will get will be slightly less than the 15mm serpentine tensioner, so you know what to expect. I use a 1/2" breaker bar about a foot long to do it, and add a 12" pipe extension on it, so it's easy to manage one handed and apply tension so the other hand is free to tighten down one of the 10mm bolts to hold the timing in place.

I can confirm that my 2.8 is not happy when the pin is perfectly lined up per spec. it likes the advance; it needs the advance.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:29 AM
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Roger that, Mark!
I stick a length of 3/4" plumbing pipe on the ratchet handle for the extra leverage.
As long as there is pressure on the dognut before the three bolts are released it sounds like a pin isn't needed, but it sounds like it would be a lot easier if I had two sets of hands.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:33 AM
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Before you loosen the bolts draw a line on the plate with a sharpie, so you'll know where you were when you started. Then you don't have to worry about that.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
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Roger that, Mark!
I stick a length of 3/4" plumbing pipe on the ratchet handle for the extra leverage.
As long as there is pressure on the dognut before the three bolts are released it sounds like a pin isn't needed, but it sounds like it would be a lot easier if I had two sets of hands.
well as soon as you relase the last of the 3 bolts, the IP is going to try and snap back counterclockwise a bit. I always use a pin to have a reference point. Never did it without locking the flywheel. you would need to make sure you hold it exactl as it is when you relase that last bolt if you aren't using it, which I think is hard to do. Otherwise, if you slip and the IP snaps back counterclockwise, that means it is now retarded, and you are guessing when you advance, because you have to advance to get back to where it was and then advance past that. you can end up advancing yourself right back to perfectly timed per the pin like it was before you started if you aren't agressive enough.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:44 AM
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regarding locking the flywheel - I do understand what Doug is saying (I think) in that all we're doing here is shifting the input shaft on the IP forward (clockwise) slightly, the timing belt (and the gear/cog that the belt rides on) should remain stationary during this procedure. It's the dognut that rotates the injector pump to advance/retard and if the timing belt doesn't slip what would be the need to lock the flywheel?


Now, if you hadn't loosened the three bolts enough, you'd end up rotating the crank via the timing belt, but if pressure is held on the IP dognut, a pin set in the hole and the three bolts loosened it sounds like a 5 minute procedure.




I don't mind spending the money on the proper tool and waiting a few days to get it, but if all I need is a drill bit or pin to stick in the IP set hole, then I'd skip the flywheel lock pin.


Also, Mark you are right about the tension felt on the IP. It has quite a bit of resistance and will "snap back" under the pressure of the compressed fuel. I felt that when I was doing the timing belt install.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 11:59 AM
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just remember that without locking the flywheel at tdc and/or the holes not lined up with TDC, the pin will only go through the hub and pulley, it won't go all the way into the timing well on the IP.

if you screw it all up and it won't start, then you'll need the tools to get back to normal.

Whatever you do, don't use the 22mm socket to crank counterclockwise. if that dognut comes loose, you'll be pulling the IP and making friends with you're local Bosch tech.

In other words, don't be me.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 12:21 PM
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Mark its sounds as though you loosen the three bolts quite a bit more than I do. I keep them fairly snug and have used a long screw driver and light mallet to advance appx 1mm @ a time. I do this while out on a test drive and just pull over to the side of the road and make adjustments and jump back in to test.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Mark its sounds as though you loosen the three bolts quite a bit more than I do. I keep them fairly snug and have used a long screw driver and light mallet to advance appx 1mm @ a time. I do this while out on a test drive and just pull over to the side of the road and make adjustments and jump back in to test.
yep. remember that my hub nut was never that tight from the factory, and theory is that it had slipped a bit over time, making my timing retarded. then when I started F'ng with the timing, I didn't know that much and went counterclockwise trying to get the pin in at TDC, and fully loosened that dog nut a few times, making it worse. Earlier this year is when I got the tip from Pendy that it must be off, I pulled the IP and had it retimed with a local Bosch shop, who confirmed it was off. Since then, I've done a timing belt change before Expo, and now I'm trying to dial it back in right after all those changes.

So yes, I've been hitting the bolts a bit.

------ Follow up post added July 15th, 2014 12:49 PM ------

Ok, I see you were referring to tension, not frequency. That's a good tip Doug. I may try that. Knowing how much to loosen though is the trick, and that is definitely based on experience. I'll have to experiment with it. I think I could use a little more advance as is, in very small increments now.
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Old July 15th, 2014, 01:15 PM
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I don't bother with the 9mm timing pin, drill bits, or anything else for fine tuning once the initial timing is set and it's running.


After the engine has been timed "straight up" using the 9mm pin, you can use a sharpie to put a mark from the index plate across to the gear. You now have a reference point and you can see where you are relative to where it was.


With one hand you can hold a ratchet with a 22mm socket on the pump, and with the other hand loosen the 3 10mm bolts. Then turn the pump slightly clockwise so that your sharpie mark doesn't line up any more. A little goes a long way here but for me it involves a little bit of trial and error. Moving it a distance equivalent to the width of your sharpie mark should be noticeable.
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