300 Tdi Low-End Boost/IP Tuning - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old July 15th, 2014, 01:39 PM
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Well said Mike!
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  #22  
Old July 15th, 2014, 04:05 PM
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well, I tried to advance the IP when I went home for lunch today and it didn't seem to want to move at all.
What am I missing. I did the following procedure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
1) remover timing inspection cover;
2) insert 8mm drill bit into hole
3) put 22mm socket (does it have to be a breaker bar?) on the dognut;
4) gently/slowly loosen the three set screws/bolts;
5) turn IP dognut (clockwise) until the slot hits the drillbit;
6) test / repeat if necessary
I even removed the 8mm drillbit altogether to make sure it wasn't interfering. I end up turning everything.
Doug, when you hit the plate with a punch or a screwdriver, exactly what are you striking and in what direction?


I thought I had moved it slightly (like the width of the sharpie mark), but I think the dognut just tightened slightly.


I had to quite and get back to work but I turned up the smoke screw 1 full turn and that definitely got some boost spooling earlier (just maybe a little smokey when under accel or load) no smoke at idle. It does get the boost up earlier and when I mat the throttle under load it's now getting up to like 0.6 BAR.
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  #23  
Old July 15th, 2014, 04:20 PM
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Ha! If you ended up turning everything, you were in neutral!
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  #24  
Old July 15th, 2014, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
Ha! If you ended up turning everything, you were in neutral!
well, yes at first, but then I stuck it in 5th and set the X-brake and that's when I think I put so much torque on the dognut it tightened by a RCH.
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  #25  
Old July 15th, 2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
I end up turning everything.



I thought I had moved it slightly (like the width of the sharpie mark), but I think the dognut just tightened slightly.
Everything shouldn't be turning if the truck is in gear and the parking brake is set.

As you know, the index plate has slots that the 10mm screws pass through. Have you reached the limit of those slots?

If you tightened the nut holding the pulley on to the IP, that's a good thing, as it may have been coming loose. Those things should be torqued pretty tight and you don't ever want to turn the IP counter clockwise for the reasons stated previously.
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  #26  
Old July 15th, 2014, 04:27 PM
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This is what it looks like.
Have I reached the limit?
why are there addition slots?
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  #27  
Old July 15th, 2014, 04:28 PM
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  #28  
Old July 15th, 2014, 05:10 PM
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The slots I'm talking about are in the gear, so you can't see them in the photos. While the outer plate is slotted I shouldn't have mentioned that because those aren't relevant to timing adjustment as far as I know.

Just to make clear, the three 10 mm bolts are threaded into the IP flange. Those bolts don't move in relation to the IP. The gear can be rotated independently of the IP flange when you loosen the 3 10mm bolts, due to the slotted holes in the gear that the bolts pass through. The outer plate just acts as a clamp to hold the gear to the IP flange and hold that position when the 10mm bolts are tightened.


------ Follow up post added July 15th, 2014 03:13 PM ------

One thing that does look a bit unusual in the pictures is that it looks like you have more than one plate on top of the IP gear. My experience is with a 200tdi, perhaps this is a 300tdi thing but that looks odd to me.

------ Follow up post added July 15th, 2014 03:16 PM ------

Ok, nevermind, the 300tdi IP gear is one of those cheesy pressed steel things. Your first picture evidently shows the IP flange, the IP gear, and then the outer plate. Not two plates as I thought initially.
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  #29  
Old July 15th, 2014, 10:02 PM
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Well, I've gone at this one more time and have come to the conclusion that the bolts must be at the end of the slots (in the advanced position) because the IP dog nut does move counterclockwise with no effort and does "snap" back from the pressure. The dog nut can then be moved clockwise but not really past the position where the 9mm pin or bit can slide into the IP housing. I mean it can be advanced slightly so that a 8.46mm (or the standard equivalent because I stuck a digital caliper on the bit to shock the diameter) will fit snugly so what, that's advanced like 0.50mm? I should be able to go much further (so that only a 4mm or so pin/bit fits into the hole), correct .

When installed the timing belt, the correct pin was in place on the IP and the correct flywheel locking pin was in the bellhousing, so there's no way I could ld be off a tooth on the belt, or.......
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  #30  
Old July 15th, 2014, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
Well, I've gone at this one more time and have come to the conclusion that the bolts must be at the end of the slots (in the advanced position) because the IP dog nut does move counterclockwise with no effort and does "snap" back from the pressure. The dog nut can then be moved clockwise but not really past the position where the 9mm pin or bit can slide into the IP housing. I mean it can be advanced slightly so that a 8.46mm (or the standard equivalent because I stuck a digital caliper on the bit to shock the diameter) will fit snugly so what, that's advanced like 0.50mm? I should be able to go much further (so that only a 4mm or so pin/bit fits into the hole), correct .

When installed the timing belt, the correct pin was in place on the IP and the correct flywheel locking pin was in the bellhousing, so there's no way I could ld be off a tooth on the belt, or.......
I was gonna say you might be off a tooth, but the alternative is that your IP flange is off from the proper setting. so the flange may be set farther clockwise than it should be. the only way to confirm that is with a dial gauge out the back of the IP, or pulling the IP and taking it to a Bosch shop. When I pulled mine and had mine reset, it only cost me $20 and they did it in 2 hours. You're IP is easier to pull then mine, and you don't have AC, which makes it dead easy. find a local bosch shop. you need to know where one is anyway, for when you really need them.
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  #31  
Old July 21st, 2014, 08:06 AM
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Okay, so Mark may be on to something with the IP being "off", but for now, the pump is definitely more advanced than it was before I did the timing belt, so I'm going to leave it alone for now. Bottom line is that it is advanced as its going to get for now.


Now, I played with the torx "smoke crew" a bit and didn't get much in terms of performance, just more smoke, so I backed off that setting, then I also backed (counterclockwise) the star wheel so that it doesn't ramp up fueling so quickly during boost because I notice that as soon as boost started to build that it would puff intermittently. I figured this was related to the star wheel so that is now adjusted for more resistance (closer to where we started).


I moved on to the Max Fuel screw at the back of the pump which until now hadn't been touched. I dremeled off the collar and cranked it in 3/4 turn and it was really smokey but also more responsive and powerful. Idle was also too high, so I backed off and now it's 1/2 turn clockwise, still a bit too smokey for my liking but boost definitely builds sooner when you pull away. Idle is still a touch high (how do I compensate for the high idle?)


I'm going to keep playing wit these settings until I find the happy place but I don't want to get too aggressive with the Max Fuel setting so I'll probably leave that where its at (1/2 turn in).


Am I going in the right direction with my methodology?
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  #32  
Old July 21st, 2014, 04:19 PM
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Wow! that Max fuel screw is "fun button" for sure!
that 1/2 turn clockwise spooled things up really early. EGTs still reasonable but climbed a lot faster.
40-minute highway run ranging from stop-n-go to 80mph. I was even able to overtake a line of cars while going UPHILL (now that's a first). EGTs never went past 950.
Too much smoke though.
Smoke came on hard as soon as turbo spooled so I tightened the star wheel by going counter-clockwise 1/2 turn and things didn't really improve a great deal so when I got back home I backed off the Max Fuel Screw 1/4 turn so now it's only 1/4 turn clockwise from stock.
We shall see where this gets us on the highway, but aside from the smoke it's definitely got some giddy up now.
Still smoking under load but not so black. Idle still a touch high.
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  #33  
Old July 21st, 2014, 05:19 PM
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Haha 'fun button'
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  #34  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
The IP signal is still off of the "T" right below the turbo, but I don't see how that would be any different as boost pressure should be greatest right after the turbo.
Apparently FALSE! or at least that is my conclusion here. Maybe the Diesel Gods here can chime in and educate me otherwise....Paging Diesel Yoda.....


So, after relocating the Injector Pump signal from the stock location right at the turbo, to the same place as the wastegate and gauge signal (at back of manifold) it is now sending a more accurate signal to the injector pump. Therefore, when the turbo spools up and it takes extra time to fill the extremely huge volume of the Alisport intercooler, the diaphragm in the IP isn't opening prematurely based on a higher pressure signal sent right after the turbo makes the boost, rather it's responding to a TRUE signal at the back of the manifold.


I know it's been mentioned that the pressure produced by the turbo should eventually equalize once the extra volume is filled up in the IC, but apparently that time delta creates a situation where the turbo spools and in turn pushes the diaphragm down allowing more fuel before there is really boost actually entering into the cylinders. Therefore, fuel is present before there is enough boost to create optimal combustion......or at least that's what I think was going on. Maybe it's the extra volume or all the extra bends that the air has to take that reduces the airflow efficiency from the turbo, IDK that's an engineering question it seems. I know that in HVAC systems they say that for every turn/bend on ductwork, the blower/fan must work harder to get the air to the desired place. A vacuum is more efficient at moving volume, but since a turbo is a pusher/fan, we're really trying to push air through more turns/bends/volume, so I'm guessing that's it. I'd ask Allisport directly, but we all know how their customer service can be.

Smoke is only there when you mat the peddle and disappears very quickly thereafter. In fact, there is probably more room to add fuel now whether the Max Fuel screw back clockwise a 1/4 turn or loosen the star wheel maybe.


Bottom line is progress is being made it seems.


Some reassurance on my theory/result from a diesel guru would be helpful, but I'm learning fast. Nothing beats your own hands on experience.
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  #35  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:27 AM
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best thread in a long time
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  #36  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:39 AM
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best thread in a long time


Thanks. Not getting a lot of input on this issue here ever since the 3-ring circus came to town (DHS thread). Though compelling stuff over there, I'm trying to focus on improving my Defender, not participating in that shit fight.
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  #37  
Old August 13th, 2014, 10:49 AM
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Aright, so I can finally bring closure to this.
First of all, props to Mark (Overlander) for suggesting that the IP gear may have been off slightly because I think that was it.


After weeks of driving around a very noisy, clacky diesel with the IP advanced all the way on the set screws (but still aligned perfectly with the 9mm pin at TDC), I finally decided to experiment with bringing the IP timing back closer to where I'd found it.
I should have used a dial gauge, but I simply gently turned back (counterclockwise) the center nut about 2-minutes (if we are talking clocks).


Basically, it is smooth as hell now. I can hear the turbo spool up pretty early and the only smoke I get is with a quick blip of the throttle and it disappears very quickly. EGTs seem to be lower as well, but further testing will be necessary to really tell. I haven't had a chance to really load it up on the highway yet.


It's definitely a trial & error, multi-stage process for anyone planning on dialing this in. To think that you could spend 3-4 hours in one session and get it perfect would be overly optimistic IMO. THanks to all that helped me sort through this.
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  #38  
Old August 13th, 2014, 12:19 PM
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Glad you got this sorted. I am very close. I just took a nice trip to the mountains and truck was way up on power and on the hwy EGTs were about 950 at 65mph with Engine temps at 192 and AC on. Problem now is when climbing or accelerating the EGTs climb right up to 1250 and i'm forced to back off the accelerator. Engine temps go up at this time but nothing bad. I can hear the turbo but don't know the boost pressure. I will be putting a boost gauge in to check this before messing with the FIP anymore. I have turned the max fuel scree back 1/2 turn, diaphragm is at 2 o'clock (3 o'clock was max) and i have turned the smoke scree clockwise 1/4 turn BUT i have no idea where the screws started but they had definitely been messed with. I'm still much happier!!
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  #39  
Old August 13th, 2014, 02:48 PM
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Back to the turbo talk. Have you tried a manual boost controller? Its popular in the tuner car community. Its basically a inlet/outlet with a spring and ball bearing that allows more pressure to flow. And you can adjust it easy
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  #40  
Old August 13th, 2014, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Solis View Post
Glad you got this sorted. I am very close. I just took a nice trip to the mountains and truck was way up on power and on the hwy EGTs were about 950 at 65mph with Engine temps at 192 and AC on. Problem now is when climbing or accelerating the EGTs climb right up to 1250 and i'm forced to back off the accelerator. Engine temps go up at this time but nothing bad. I can hear the turbo but don't know the boost pressure. I will be putting a boost gauge in to check this before messing with the FIP anymore. I have turned the max fuel scree back 1/2 turn, diaphragm is at 2 o'clock (3 o'clock was max) and i have turned the smoke scree clockwise 1/4 turn BUT i have no idea where the screws started but they had definitely been messed with. I'm still much happier!!

you're timing is still a bit retarded, but you're almost there. another 1-2mm should do it. Don't be scurred.
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