300 Tdi Egt Q?????? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 29th, 2004, 02:00 PM
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300 Tdi Egt Q??????

For all you guys out there with 300 Tdi's. I would really like to find out what is standard, and what is too high for EGT's. I have upped the fuel and boost and I average around 700F usually but up hills I can get up to 1050F pretty easy and if I am going up a major hill I can hit 1250F if I floor the petal all the way, pretty fast, but have only done it once for a fraction of a second. I expect the egt's to drop a bit when I replace my intercooler pipe that is severely kinked due to the coilover mounts. I guess the question is, What is too high? What is a good operating temp? Thanks!!

BTW: the water temp is at 195F pretty consistently.
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  #2  
Old March 29th, 2004, 02:40 PM
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David, are you a member of the tdi yahoo group? This topic is being incessantly discussed there.
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Old March 29th, 2004, 02:43 PM
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I already posted there, no luck. Plus, there is no clear answers. Some say it can go 1450F some say 1250F max. It is all over the place. I have been looking for a concrete answer on this for a while. I was hopeing some of the Euro-D's could jump in and help me out!
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Old March 29th, 2004, 03:05 PM
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You might try this: www.lrenthusiastforum.com

If you don't get much of a response here from that side of the pond.
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Old March 29th, 2004, 03:30 PM
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Thanks a lot Dave! It looks like 800c is a good cut off, if I do my math right that equals 1476F so I am under that a good amount. I would still like to hear from the TDi guys to see what they usually operate at.
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Old March 29th, 2004, 05:34 PM
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There was a huge post a while ago on the Landrover Enthusiast site
titled How to boost your TDi performance - almost for free! Comments please!!!
It ran to 62 pages when I printed it off.
Running too high an exhaust temp is a very bad thing and leads to melted valves, pistons and other BAD stuff.
After a quick skim through the words (which are extensive) 730 deg C seems to be safe.
There's loads of other links within the post so try and track it down.
Hope this helps.
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Old March 29th, 2004, 05:51 PM
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The post seems to have disappeared from the LRE site.
That's a pity as it was a good source of info
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Old March 29th, 2004, 05:54 PM
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Man, bummer. Is there anyway to get to it??
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Old March 29th, 2004, 05:56 PM
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I noticed that too Mike. I had remembered that exact post and attempted to find it but couldn't spend the time searching for it. I wonder where it went. It was full of tons of info.
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  #10  
Old March 30th, 2004, 05:44 AM
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I think it's been moved to the tech archive. It was originally in the Discovery forum. I'll have a look.
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Old March 30th, 2004, 05:46 AM
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Here is How to Increase Your TDi Performance - almost for free !


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Old March 30th, 2004, 12:27 PM
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THANKS!!!
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Old March 30th, 2004, 02:16 PM
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Brill detective work
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Old March 31st, 2004, 04:37 AM
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You're too kind!
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  #15  
Old January 24th, 2006, 04:57 PM
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I was digging around and found this old thread... but the link for: How to boost your TDi performance - almost for free! is no longer working.
Does anyone have a copy of that thread thay could post or send to me?
thanks
-s
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Old January 24th, 2006, 05:47 PM
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Hey guys, this is a cut and paste from searching on google for that thread on LRE and using googles cashed thingy I'm going to save at least this page to my PC for now go here, then hit file, save as and save it on your PC so you will always have it. Does anyone have the original thread on LRE with all the replies?

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:syMJC-lmAVMJ:www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthreads/printthread.php%3FCat%3D%26Board%3DLR_technical%26 main%3D91564%26type%3Dthread++site:www.lrenthusias tforum.com+LRE+Here+is+How+to+Increase+Your+TDi+Pe rformance+-+almost+for+free+!&hl=en

So, you want to know how to get more power out of your 300Tdi (or 200 Tdi for that matter)? These engines are both fitted with the Bosch VE type fuel pumps, and although they work at different out-put pressures, and some are fitted with immobiliser valves and throttle position sensors, essentially they work in exactly the same way.

This is not the case with the electronically controlled versions, where an engine management system is employed and there is no direct accelerator peddle to throttle link – the following methods of adjustment should not be used on these types of fuel injection distributor pumps. These engines can be ‘chipped’ to get the same sort of power increase.

Below is what I have done.

I MAKE NO GUARANTEES THAT THE ADJUSTMENTS ARE SAFE FOR YOUR ENGINE – IF YOU DO THESE ADJUSTMENTS THEY ARE DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK. READ ALL OF THE INFORMATION BELOW BEFORE YOU START !

Remember - this will void any remaining warranty.


I first of all went to a Japanese Car Breakers yard and bought a rather nice big intercooler from a 1990 Toyota Supra. It was in excellent condition, is about twice the size of the original Disco item, and cost £35.

I then bought some reinforced 50mm rubber hose and some pre-formed 50mm reinforced rubber hose ’90 degree Bends’. I then fitted the new intercooler in-front of the Air-Con Radiator assembly and plumbed in the pipe-work to the original intercooler inlet. I now have three times the cooling capacity of the original intercooler. This means more cold air = more power !!!

However, all this extra plumbing has added a little more resistance to the air flow, which means that you get your 1 bar at the turbo outlet, but you don’t get 1 bar at the inlet valves. To get over this, drill and tap a hole in the inlet manifold (plenum chamber) and screw in barbed hose fitting (available from your local plumbing merchant for about £1). Get a bit of tube and push it over this fitting and lead it down to your waste-gate actuator – plug it into that and blank off the hose you had to pull off, that leads back to the turbo outlet. Thus the waste-gate will now only get 1 bar when you get 1 bar at the inlet valves, and then it will start opening.

I plumbed a ‘T’ into the above fitting and led a hose to an accurate pressure gauge mounted on the dash, so I can monitor the turbo boost. This can help you to drive economically too, but it allows you to see how well you turbo is working.

If needs be, you can shorten the waste-gate actuator rod and increase the boost. You may need to remove the actuator and cut a bit off the end of the rod to allow sufficient adjustment in the sleeve portion (don’t take too much off at once – better do it in 3mm increments !). What you will find is the rod is too long to get more boost, as too much of it screws into the sleeve and bottoms out. You will have to shorten it quite a way to get more than 1 bar boost – but this is often all you need. 200 Tdis run at 0.7 – 0.8 bar – you can safely increase this to 1 bar – 300Tdi’s run at 1 bar already – best left alone!

In doing this you will find that you are actually having to pull the rod against the actuator spring to get it back onto the waste-gate – this is quite fiddly – use locking pliers and mind your fingers! Ensure you put the circlip back on. This means that the actuator spring is now holding the waste-gate shut, and means that more boost is required to overcome the spring before the waste-gate is opened. It won’t fully open now either, so boost pressure is held at a constantly higher pressure for longer.

Now you have got all that extra nice cool air at 1 bar, you need the fuel to go with it to get the extra performance. Here’s how to do that:


Diagram 1 Diagram 2 Diagram 3

All Adjustments can be made without removing the pump from the engine.
Low manifold pressure (boost) fuel delivery adjustment.
See: ‘Smoke Adjustment Screw’ in either diagram 1 or 2
This adjustment is fairly simple and will help considerably around town at low engine speeds and low boost conditions.
There is a small cap in the centre of the ‘ automatic fuel-control device’ (AFC) on top of the pump (the ‘appendage’ that is plumbed to the intake manifold and restricts the amount of fuel injected until the manifold pressure is above atmospheric). This cap can be readily removed with two small screwdrivers and a gentle rocking motion.
Beneath the cap is a torx T-25 screw and a lock nut that holds it. The locknut is 13 mm and has a ‘break-away torque’ of around 100 in-lbs. Turn the T-25 screw 2 turns clockwise and tighten the locknut to 125 in-lbs. For additional fuel (and smoke) the screw may be turned farther (CW). Back it off (CCW) to reduce smoke.
NOTE: this will increase the exhaust gas temperature (EGT) by about 75 degrees F on long hills. Clean the plug with Brake Cleaner and then seal it with LocTite pipe thread sealant with teflon. Externally, it will appear original.


Full load fuel delivery rate adjustment.
See: Diagram 3
This adjustment will TURN UP THE POWER and smoke.
NOTE: this will raise the EGT very quickly at full throttle.
The main adjustment is found under the Diaphragm within the fuel control device described above. This is held in place with the 4-screw cover.
MARK THE POSITION OF THE DIAPHRAGM, then remove the diaphragm - there is a stamped tick mark on it, so use a magic marker or scribe to note the position of the diaphragm ‘v’ housing.
Remove the diaphragm and pin, and note the pin is both tapered and on an eccentric. Usually, rotating the pin 120 degrees clockwise will cause the machined cone to go to the ‘richest’ setting (smallest diameter, effectively) part of the pin.
You may want to start at 90 degrees, and then go further if that does not produce the power you want. The further you turn it, the higher and faster EGT will climb. The fuel stop lever runs up and down the conical section of this pin.
NOTE: the way to install the pin is such that allows maximum travel of the fuel stop lever that hits this pin and is perpendicular to it.
CAUTION: mark stuff so you can put it back the way it was !
After adjusting the diaphragm eccentric pin, the low boost fuel rate may need to be adjusted slightly to reduce low speed smoke.
How it works:
The eccentric tapered pin that’s attached to the diaphragm is the FUEL DELIVERY RATE pin.
From above, looking down at the pump, almost to the bottom of the bore that the delivery rate pin came out of, is the bore that the fuel stop lever rides in. The linear axis or centre-line of the fuel stop lever is parallel to the axis of the pump drive shaft, or the engine crank shaft. The movement of the delivery rate pin (down with increasing boost levels) allows the fuel stop lever (which by internal spring pressure is contacting it) to contact the increasingly smaller diameter. This allows the fuel stop lever to move rearward (on the fuel delivery pin), which increases the fuel delivery rate. As a note: according to the Bosch injection manual, the “stock” or base line for the diaphragm position is 12:00 as you look at the pump from the side of the engine. In other words, the tick mark is toward the valve cover, for the normal setting. If you look at the underside of the diaphragm, you can see where the eccentric aspect of the Fuel Delivery Rate Pin would push the fuel stop lever deepest toward the front of the pump, that is the LEAST delivery rate setting. Consider that 12:00. Rotating the diaphragm clockwise from that point to 3:00 is a good place to go. Depending on the injectors that are in, and your turbo boost, you may want to turn a little more.

Automatic Fuel Control Star Wheel Adjustment
See: ‘Starwheel’, diagram 1
Remove the cap fitted with the 4 straight head screws. Under the AFC diaphragm and spring is a star wheel adjustment which sets the spring tension on the FUEL DELIVERY RATE PIN diaphragm. If your star wheel (under the AFC spring) is set too high, the delivery rate pin won’t move downward as it should with increasing boost levels. Turning the star wheel up (counter-clockwise) increases the spring pressure, and slows the delivery rate. Turning the star wheel down (clockwise) in ¼ turn increments until you smoke, then back off (counter-clockwise) until the smoke has gone to your satisfaction, or until just smokes under power (a black haze, not a black soot cloud) is ok. The retaining lock spring doesn’t have to be removed, the star wheel will rotate with a small screwdriver gently placed and pried between the wheel and it.
CAUTION: Note the original location of the wheel, mark it, and count any turns for reference.
Remember: Star wheel down = less spring resistance = increased fuel delivery rate

Full Power Adjustment

See ‘Power Adjustment Screw’, diagram 2
On the rear of the pump, partially concealed by the fuel lines, and under a plastic ‘anti-tamper’ cap is an other adjustment screw. Remove the plastic cap and the metal collar tack-welded to the screw, loosen the jam-nut, and turn the power adjustment screw clockwise about 11/2 to 2 turns. After turning the Full Power Adjustment, you may need to re-adjust the Smoke Adjustment Screw to reduce low speed smoke, and the idle screw or throttle linkage to correct the idle speed.
To remove the metal collar it is best to use a ‘Dremmel’ type grinder, or very carefully using an electric drill and 2mm or smaller drill bit, drill a series of holes along the collar and then gently chisel it off with a very sharp cold chisel. The collar appears to be made out of a hardened steel, so a very sharp drill bit is required.

Idle Adjustment:
See ‘Idle Speed Screw’ Diagram 3
Once you have done the above, you will probably need to reset the idle speed adjustment. Loosen the lock nut and then unscrew (reduce revs) or screw in (increases revs) the idle stop until you get 750 – 800 RPM, then tighten the lock nut and recheck you haven’t moved the setting. Most, but not all, disco’s have a rev counter, but you can set those that don’t have one by putting a dab of white paint (Tippex correcting fluid is good) on the crank pulley (with the engine stationary!). Connect a standard timing light (according to manufacturers instructions) to a petrol engine car fitted with a rev counter and parked close enough for the timing light to reach into the engine bay of your Disco. Start both engines and if the petrol engine is held at the revs you want the Diesel engine set to, the correct revs on the diesel engine are reached when your painted mark is stationary.

Additional Notes:
If your smoke is only at full throttle load - back off the full load screw.
If your smoke is at low end through pull-up to full power - back down the delivery rate.
If smoke is heavy at immediate start-up - fine adjust the smoke set screw.

In order to increase the horsepower one must carefully make two adjustments: one is in the smoke-limiter and will be adjusted to allow greater fuel with low manifold pressure (initially, this is adjusted to minimise black smoke at low rpm/low manifold pressure conditions... but, we cannot build exhaust manifold pressure without fuel !). You must remove the circular seal-plug from the centre of the AFC device. This reveals the first adjustment. This adjustment will markedly affect the feel of the cars pull-a-way power, making it pull from a stop more strongly. Adjust this in ¼-turn increments until you ‘like’ the feel and record the adjustment so you can return it to ‘normal’ in preparation for a smoke opacity test for the MOT.
The second adjustment is where the real gain comes from... There is a concealed adjustment on the ‘back side’ of the pump... essentially behind the fuel lines. [See the power adjustment screw on diagram 2 above] You must uncover the adjustment screw and turn it 135-degrees clockwise. You may have to reduce idle speed back to 750 rpm after this adjustment.
Remember - this will void any remaining warranty.
I MAKE NO GUARANTEES THAT THE ADJUSTMENTS ARE SAFE FOR YOUR ENGINE – IF YOU DO THESE ADJUSTMENTS THEY ARE DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK.


I found some these details after many hours of searching on the Internet. I got the bits on how to adjust the VE pump from the following site: http://www.dodgeram.com/technical/DI...r/power_ve.htm
I offer my sincere and grateful regards to those how posted them there …they enabled me to transform my 300Tdi ES Discovery for very little money compared to what some of the advertised ‘specialists’ charge.
A word of advice though: incorrect adjustment of any of the above may destroy your engine and or cause it to fail emission tests if not done correctly. Be sure you’re both competent and able to make the adjustments before attempting them. Do them at your own risk. If in doubt, pay for an expert to do them for you. You may need to inform your insurance company of the modifications you have made.

If you cant see the diagrammes on this page - go to the above web site and print them off from there.You will see that I have very slightly altered some of the information to make it easier to understand. I have also taken out some of the stuff that isn't relevant.

Have fun and enjoy!

But please let me have your comments on the above - lets see if we can get 100 posted replies !!!!

Jon

Hi all,

I have checked the link, and may have misinterpreted how to get you there. Try this one: http://www.ece.vt.edu/~dfritz/techni...r/Power_ve.htm

I am glad some of you liked the info....I suppose I could charge for it, but I faced lots of opposition from various sources to get it, and resented that. I resolved to make it freely available once I found out, hence the posting...

Jon

Hi all,

I have checked the link, and may have misinterpreted how to get you there. Try this one: http://www.ece.vt.edu/~dfritz/techni...r/Power_ve.htm

I am glad some of you liked the info....I suppose I could charge for it, but I faced lots of opposition from various sources to get it, and resented that. I resolved to make it freely available once I found out, hence the posting...

Jon


wELL
JON WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THIS MODIFICATION
I.E BHP TORQUE MPG 0-60,OFFROAD PERFORMANCE

ETC
GIVE US SOME FEEDBACK BEFORE WE GO AND PLAY MECHANICS


Too early to say yet, Marios, about economy, but the pull-a-way from standstill feels MUCH better, and mid-range is excellent compared to old - I have the confidence to attempt an overtake now! I use the car for towing - but havent towed since the mods yet - I'll let you know what that feels like as soon as I do. I havent off roaded this one so I cant compare b4 and after. The last Landy I off roaded was a 110 V8 about 15 years ago (when I used to do a bit of off roading in Scotland and Norfolk during the summer)and before that a S11A (which I rolled off road ! - not too much damage - drove it home once it was back on its wheels!)

I'll keep you all posted on how well it goes over the next few weeks, but its all quite new at the moment and feels great - lets see if the effect wears off !

Incidentally, I was only getting an average of 25 mpg b4, but the engine has now only just done 24000 miles and is still quite tight. My old 200 TDi didnt get over 30 mpg until it had done 60,000 miles ! I tinkered with that one too, and although I did the turbo wastegate mods and increased the full load fuelling, I didnt do the other mods to it, except for putting a really good fan on the intercooler to help it work better. Those mods alone produced a really good and worthwhile improvement, but nothing like these have !

I would reccomend the fitting of a boost guage if you are going to alter the boost pressure - it is quite easy to over do things !

Jon


Ohh my god! What a difference that makes! Its like a whole new car have supprised a few boy racers all ready! bottom end power has increased, mid range is dangerous, and top end comes and goes that quick! I hit a peak tourque at 3000rpm I know that because in the wet and first gear the wheels spin even though your already moving! I am now considering entering it in our clubs comp-safari once roll cage is fitted!
Thanks Jon!!!!

Marios and David...

Here is my interpretation of what is happening....

No, I dont have an Exhaust Gas Temp gauge fitted, but if you want details of how to make one....! Seriously though, go to this site - which although relates to petrol engines, I think has some excellent information on. Also, you will have to go through to find the other articles - they are linked, so it is very easy. Look at 'the complete guide to intercooling - parts 1 & 2', 'Brilliant Boost', 'Project EXA','TEMPSCREEN: Parts 1 - 4', all written by Julian Edgar. These articles will help you make your own tweak devices at little cost compared to buying, and will also help you understand what is going on...

You will find them at : http://www.autospeed.com.au/C_articl...1/article.html

As for where to fit it... dump the Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve (EGR)and you now have an ideal place to fit your temp sender ! This action is worth doing and is reputed to be worth a few BHP - replace the pipe from the top of the intercooler to the plenum chamber (inlet manifold) with a straight bit of tube or rubber pipe for better air flow (less restriction). Keep the EGR assembly and pipes in the garage for future selling of the car.... also dont do this if you are in a country that requires the device to be fitted. It is NOT needed in the UK - apparently ! You can just undo the multi-plug from the unit and tie it up out of the way, so that it can all bolt back on if you have to one-day...

Marios - the FULL LOAD DELIVERY is NOT the Star Wheel adjustment, it is the 'rotating of the diaphragm (and pin attached to it)' - this pin is of an excentric shape and rotating it alters the profile that the fuel stop lever travels along. Turning it anti- clockwise reduces the amount of fuel delived and clockwise increases the amount of fuel.

In reducing the amount of fuel, the fuel stop lever is pushed away from the pins axis and this causes the slider (contol spool) on the plunger to move to the right, allowing fuel pressure to the injectors to drop sooner - in other words less fuel is delivered in the same 'stroke'of the plunger. Moving the diaphragm clockwise slightly (30 degrees or so) allows the fuel stop lever to be pushed 'less' far away from the pins axis and thus moves the control spool to the left - allowing the plunger to create pressure in the fuel injector for longer before pressure is dropped out of the control spool (more fuel delivered for the same amount of 'stroke')The crux of it is that the 'stroke' remains constant for any given engine speed - the amount of fuel delivered depends upon the how long the pressure is held at a high enough pressure to overcome the injector spring valve (but that is another story !!).The control spool, in moving either left or right adjusts how long the pressure can be maintained for - longer time = more fuel delivered- Got it ?? !! Hope so !!

The Star Wheel adjusts the 'pick up'(or how much fuel is allowed to be delivered, by the control of the height and thus profile of the Fuel Delivery Rate Pin) as boost begins to develop - it alters how much boost is required for an increase in fuelling, by adjusting the tension on the spring acting on the diaphragm that opposes the boost pressure. - Got that !

Hope this helps you to understand what is going on inside the pump !

As for adjusting the waste gate - on the 200 TDi this is quite easy as the wastegate is easily accessed - on the 300 it is in a ******* of a place and is probably more easily adjusted if the wastegate assembly is removed - dont know for sure because I havent do it on a 300 - the boost is already 1 bar and that should be enough if you dont want it all to go BANG !

Back to the 200....

Remove the circlip (wear eye protection) and lever (gently bently !) the wastegate 'arm' off the pin sticking out of the exhaust manifold. You may need pliers to do this - mind your fingers!

With this off you will see that part of the 'arm' is threaded and part of it (the bit that attaches to the pin sticking out of the manifold) is a sleeve which screws onto the threaded part.

Slacken the lock nut and wind the threaded bit right into the sleeve, then tighten the lock nut.

You will now HAVE to use pliers to pull against the spring inside the wastegate, to get the 'arm' back onto the pin sticking out of the manifold. Replace the circlip - wear eye protection !!

You should now have got at least 1 bar boost but you REALLY NEED A BOOST GAUGE to check at this point. If you need more boost, you may have to cut a bit of the threaded part of the rod off, as it will have probably bottomed out in the sleeve bit. I advise unbolting the wastegate and doing this with it held firmly in a vise - its only a couple of bolts and is easy enough to get off.

Dont cut too much off - do it in 3 or 4 mm bits at a time, and recheck your boost each time. Pain in the bum I know, but its better than hacking off a great big bit and stuffing your wastegate!

If you have too much boost - lengthen the 'arm' by slackening the lock nut and unscrewing the sleeve from the threaded rod - do it a couple of turns at a time and refit, checking boost each time until you have the desired boost pressure.

When checking boost, you need to get to full operating temp, find a long hill and climb it on full power in third or forth gear.

If you have a boost gauge fitted (dont know how your going to check it otherwise !) and the needle flickers lots as the wastegate does its stuff, you can stop this by putting a restrictor in the hose to the boost gauge - it really needs to only allow a very small hole for the pressure to get through. I used an air correction jet out of a weber carb (no 30) and it works fine.

Refit and show the boy racers a good time!

Jon


Jim

A Dremmel Grinder is the same sort of thing as Black and Decker make - and call a Wizzard (or something like !)

Basically it is a small electric hand grinder that runs up at about 25,000 rpm. It uses purpose made grinding attachments and cnad be used very accurately to grind, polisk, drill, engrave etc... hence it is iedal to remove the small 'anti -tamper' collar on the max. fuel screw.


The Star Wheel Adjustment should give you the best increase in performance, as it allows the boost to have an effect from very little boost all the way up to max boost. Adjusting this allows the small amount of initial boost to depress the diaphragm 'more easily' and so you get more fuel and thus more power at an earlier stage of accellerating - this gets even better as the boost builds....!!!! but may cause a little smoke. If it does, back off the first adjustment slightly. This one raise and lowers the eccentric pin in relation to the diaphragm, so giving a richer (lower) or weaker (higher) fuel ratio before you even start to build boost.

The next thing to consider, whislt adjusting the Star Wheel, is rotating the diaphragm and pin by about 30 degreese clockwise, to present a better profile of the pin to the max fuel stop lever - see above for an explantion of how this works.

You only need to adjust the MAX Fuel Screw (involving cutting off the collar with the 'Dremmel')if you want more 'top end' power for a slightly higher top speed, or better 'flat out' accelleration. It does cause you to use more fuel, so before you do it, consider if you really need it.

Jon
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  #17  
Old January 24th, 2006, 06:56 PM
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steve
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hippert u da man
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  #18  
Old January 25th, 2006, 08:45 AM
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Here's a link to the new forum, but you may need to be signed in to veiw it.

http://www.landroveraddict.com/ubbth...0&fpart=1&vc=1
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  #19  
Old January 25th, 2006, 09:09 AM
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David Marchand
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Let me try this. The web site it was formerly on seems to no longer exist. But maybe I can post my archive of it. I used this as a guide for upping the power on my 2.8. I would suggest being conservative when doing this. Perhaps others will chime in. A little tweak here goes a long way.

This includes some descriptive pics and a nice layout...
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File Type: doc Turning up the pre 94 Ram diesel injector pump.doc (50.5 KB, 338 views)
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  #20  
Old January 25th, 2006, 09:18 AM
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I have the original thread of that bbs on PDF but it's over 1.3MB. I can send it to you.

Also, go here for a writeup with pics:

http://www.orrp.com/smf/index.php?topic=4722.0
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