300 Tdi difficult startup, diesel leak? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old December 28th, 2014, 08:38 PM
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Julien Dalbin
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300 Tdi difficult startup, diesel leak?

I'm having difficulties to startup in the morning, starter has to rev for a short time before engine start. It's obviously not a temperature related issue, at least not a cold problem. A few days ago I smelled a characteristic diesel olor around engine bay, so next morning I manually pumped on the lift pump and the vehicle started right away.

I guess I have a small leak and the system get discharged during the night. I visually checked lines and pumps and found nothing.

Anyone had a similar issue or can point something specific ?

Thanks, cheers
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  #2  
Old December 28th, 2014, 08:59 PM
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Only a problem first start of the day? Second and subsequent starts ok? Want to eliminate weak battery as a potential cause.
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 10:02 PM
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Most likely a dry O ring, a dry rotted line, etc. Basically the fuel system is sucking enough air to allow fuel to drain back into your tank.

You confirmed it by hand priming the system. It may not leak fuel, but it will suck air (lose prime)...

Good luck and let us know what you find.
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  #4  
Old December 29th, 2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Only a problem first start of the day? Second and subsequent starts ok? Want to eliminate weak battery as a potential cause.
Yep, only the first one.

------ Follow up post added December 29th, 2014 09:28 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthiford View Post
Basically the fuel system is sucking enough air to allow fuel to drain back into your tank.
My angle also, I was hoping that the air entry would also be a diesel exit, but doesn't seem to.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 08:56 AM
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Another repeat at of fuel system routing advice.
This has to be at least the 20th time...

Change the fuel system to have the following components in this order:
Tank, sedimenter, 12V fuel pump, lift pump, fuel filter, IP, Return line, tank.
Turn on the key and wait for the engine glow (the 12V pump should be on), then engine will immediately start (unless you have a problem not related to the fuel system).
What once was an air leak, is now a fuel leak, locate it and fix it.
End of problem, case closed.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Tank, sedimenter, 12V fuel pump, lift pump, fuel filter, IP, Return line, tank.
Let me get this straight, you're telling me to add a 12V fuel pump to the system, on the lift pump entry line ?

Why an electrical pump will show where is the leak, and not the lift pump ?
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  #7  
Old December 29th, 2014, 09:14 AM
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He wants you to put the 12v pump close to the tank so that it will create positive pressure in the line. Without it, there is only the negative pressure from the mechanical lift pump and the fuel won't ever come out from the leak point. Presumably the pressure from the 12v pump will force the fuel out from the leak point. I guess you could do the same thing with an air compressor if you want to keep your vehicle stock.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 09:17 AM
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12V pump after the sedimentator back close to the tank.
Think about the difference it will make.

When we went to the Cove this year Jeff Bang had the same issue.
I borrowed a 12V pump from Jonsey and gave it to him.
He kept thinking he didn't need a 12V pump so wouldn't install it.
After all Land Rover didn't use a 12V fuel pump.
So on Sunday when everyone was packing to leave, he put the 12V pump back by the tank as a last resort.
Two seconds later, fuel was dripping from a bad fitting.
He fixed it and never looked back.
Now when he changes the fuel filter or runs out of fuel, he switches on the key, waits 3 minuter, and starts the engine.
No need to bleed the fuel system.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #9  
Old December 29th, 2014, 09:26 AM
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Sounds like a great upgrade, and you have redundancy as well. Rob, does having the positive pressure on the feed line to the lift pump cause any issue, or extend it's life as well?
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  #10  
Old December 29th, 2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFD View Post


My angle also, I was hoping that the air entry would also be a diesel exit, but doesn't seem to.

As Robert stated above...add the 12V pump.
(And for the record, I was just making sure it was a good thing to do...and I did it on Saturday-not Sunday!)
Prior to adding the 12v pump, mine was NOT leaking any fuel but it was sucking AIR.
It took 10-30 seconds to fire up.
As soon as I got the 12v pump all hooked up....drip-drip-drip from a bad fitting.
Now, fires up immediately.


.
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  #11  
Old December 29th, 2014, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
As Robert stated above...add the 12V pump.
(And for the record, I was just making sure it was a good thing to do...and I did it on Saturday-not Sunday!)
Prior to adding the 12v pump, mine was NOT leaking any fuel but it was sucking AIR.
It took 10-30 seconds to fire up.
As soon as I got the 12v pump all hooked up....drip-drip-drip from a bad fitting.
Now, fires up immediately.


.
OK you win...
I communicate with so many people and have so much going on that it never stays straight in my mind.

Now tell the story how your wife fixed your Range Rover brakes over the Holidays on a new thread!
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #12  
Old December 29th, 2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
Sounds like a great upgrade, and you have redundancy as well. Rob, does having the positive pressure on the feed line to the lift pump cause any issue, or extend it's life as well?
Not sure if it extends life, but doesn't cause any issues.

I did run into a situation on a 200TDI that stopped running due to a bad lift pump.
We didn't know the lift pump was bad at the time and installed a 12V fuel pump.
The engine almost immediately started and ran, but had an air leak on the suction side (exposed by a drip caused by the positive pressure of the12V pump).
Then we were able to figure out the lift pump was bad.
By taking the 12V pump out and putting in a new lift pump we were able to find and fix both the bad lift pump and air leak.
I am not certain, but think the lift pump failed due to the air leak.
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #13  
Old December 29th, 2014, 10:05 AM
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Brilliantly simple idea there Dr. Davis!
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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  #14  
Old December 29th, 2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Brilliantly simple idea there Dr. Davis!
Back in the 70s worked summers in between college at Copeland Motors, the Land Rover dealer in Norfolk, VA.
My ride of choice was an MGTD and an MGA (you needed 2 in order to drive 1).
They both used 12V fuel pumps.

We had about a half dozen 2,25 series diesels we serviced regularly at great frustration to the other mechanics.
One day the service manager asked me to take over a job on a 2.25 Diesel Land Rover that another mechanic had given up on getting it started.
It ran fine before the new fuel filter was installed.
I immediately took the spare 12V fuel pump out of my MG and hooked it up to the fuel filter via a line from a can of diesel.
The 12V fuel pump exposed a twisted seal on the CAV sandwich filter that dripped fuel.
I fixed the seal, and started the engine to the surprised sounds of cheers from the other mechanics.
The parts counter guy and I went through his books and found a 12V diesel fuel pump and ordered a few.
We made it a common practice of installing a 12V fuel pump back by the tank on the 2.25 diesel Land Rovers.
The vehicles came in for service, got new filters, we switched on the key, waited a minutes and started the engine.
No more 2 hour ordeal of bleeding and pumping an empty fuel system and or filter by hand to struggle to purge air out of the diesel fuel system.

Yes really simple.

I remembered going there in the 1980s after I graduated college and had a different job.
Saw the same old service manager who told me they still serviced some old diesel Rovers and with the 12V pump, the job was soooo much easier.
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #15  
Old December 29th, 2014, 10:56 AM
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awesome. do you have a particular pump you recommend? I'll add it to my todo list
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  #16  
Old December 29th, 2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
awesome. do you have a particular pump you recommend? I'll add it to my todo list
http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Gasket-12D-.../dp/B001QVTI5U

Is the one he suggested in the other thread. I just picked one up
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Old December 29th, 2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.G View Post
http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Gasket-12D-.../dp/B001QVTI5U

Is the one he suggested in the other thread. I just picked one up
Just saw that other thread, thanks.
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  #18  
Old December 29th, 2014, 11:08 AM
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Julien:
Let us know how the fix goes.
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #19  
Old December 29th, 2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Julien:
Let us know how the fix goes.
I will.
I have to wait for the fuel pump to come down here, I'll start routing the wires. Did you guys put a relay on this ?

Thanks
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  #20  
Old December 29th, 2014, 12:25 PM
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I love how the fuel pump instructions for this diesel pump have in all caps: *NOT FOR FUEL INJECTED APPLICATIONS

hilarious. Must have been designed for carburated diesels only.
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