2nd grinding? Synchro? - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old March 1st, 2004, 10:30 AM
Burke's Avatar
Burke
Status: Offline
Burke Bell
'94 NAS D90 #158
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
Posts: 1,016
Registry
2nd grinding? Synchro?

I have started noticing a gear grind on shifts into 2nd. It usually occurs at a quick shift. I heard this might be a synchro problem? Is this a major ($) thing? Do I need to do something soon? My 90 is an early '94 with the r380 trans I think?
Thanks guys
__________________
"I race cars, play tennis, and fondle women, BUT! I have weekends off, and I am my own boss." - Arthur
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old March 1st, 2004, 11:34 AM
Glenn_Guinto's Avatar
Glenn_Guinto
Status: Offline
Glenn Guinto
94LWB; 99D1; 06RR S/C
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central Valley, NY
Posts: 1,037
Registry
Burke,

You can tell if it's a R380 if the reverse is in the conventional "all-the-way-to-the-right-down" position. If it isn't, then it's an LT77.

Regardless, I started developing that problem to in my 94 with R380. A few months ago, I read here that changing the fluid to Redline MTL will quiet down the syncros. I haven't tried it yet, but that's in my list of projects to do list.
__________________
Glenn


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old March 1st, 2004, 11:37 AM
Berty's Avatar
Berty
Status: Offline
Brett Hurrell
D90 Hardtop 300Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Norfolk, England
Posts: 79
This is a common problem with the R380. Do you find it improves when the box is warmed up?
If you are using ATF in the box try the MTF94 gear oil or a 5w/20 synthetic equivalent. This should improve matters considerably.
You will find though that quick changes & Land Rover gearboxes do not go hand in hand

Take it easy with the old girl & make the changes slow & deliberate & you'll probably find it'll run for ages like this

I would imagine a new R380 Stateside would be maximum bucks & you may end up with a new gearbox that changes gear the same as the old one.

Good luck.
p.s. Hopefully this is acceptable for a Newbies first effort?

Brett
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old March 1st, 2004, 12:10 PM
Mike Hippert's Avatar
Mike Hippert
Status: Offline
D-90Slut/Stalker,SNLPres
94 D-90 Grinding Rover
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester NH USA
Posts: 4,789
Brett, that sound about right. Mine does the same thing every now and then when its cold. I added some Lucas oil additive stuff and it seems to have helped some. I never have a problem in the summer but in the winter I have to push a little harder to get it into gear.
__________________
Don't forget to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
first then ask questions later! The loose nut behind the wheel
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old March 1st, 2004, 12:46 PM
Berty's Avatar
Berty
Status: Offline
Brett Hurrell
D90 Hardtop 300Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Norfolk, England
Posts: 79
Mike, nearly everyone I know with an R380 has problems changing into 2nd. A friend of mine had a new box under warranty on a new D90 CSW Td5. The new box was no better.

Another friend paid for a new box from Ashcrofts for his wifes 300Tdi Disco, again no better but he did end up with a good quality rebuilt box

My truck has been a bitch to change the last few days, we've had heavy (for the UK) snowfall & freezing temps. This is with MTF94 in the box.

As you say, summertime, no problems. I have always been sceptical of gearbox additives, if you find it helps though, that's great.

I would definitely recommend you change over to MTF94 or a 5w/20 fully synthetic next time you drop the oil on your truck. ATF is too thin for them. MTF94 is the specified oil from the factory now, you can get it from your main dealers or Texaco (they manufacture it) If not any good quality 5w/20 synth. e.g. Mobil 1, redline or whatever you can get hold of. It does make a real difference.

Best regards

Brett
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old March 1st, 2004, 12:53 PM
Mike Hippert's Avatar
Mike Hippert
Status: Offline
D-90Slut/Stalker,SNLPres
94 D-90 Grinding Rover
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester NH USA
Posts: 4,789
Brett, the 75w is not too heavy? I ask because I have heard that if you use it it will not lubricate everything in the T-case all that well due to it being to thick. But then again I have also heard that it is not used due to the fact that it makes shifting harder in cold whether, although good synthetic will be fine down to very cold temps.

Whats your location in the UK? I have a friend over hear who has only lived hear for about 2 years and grew up in the UK. One of his friends was just over here form the UK for a short stay.
__________________
Don't forget to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
first then ask questions later! The loose nut behind the wheel
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old March 1st, 2004, 01:28 PM
Berty's Avatar
Berty
Status: Offline
Brett Hurrell
D90 Hardtop 300Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Norfolk, England
Posts: 79
Oops, My brain wasn't in gear!
I don't mean 75w for the main box. A popular alternative to MTF94 over here is MT75D marketed by Difflock. I got carried away by the the 75. The weight of oil for the main R380 should be 5W/20 fully synthetic.

I'll go back & edit my posts to remove any confusion.

Mike, I'm located in a tiny village on the East coast of England in the fine County of Norfolk. The Queen has a Home up the road in Sandringham. (not that I'm related mind you!)

Brett

p.s. Mike I've sent you a Private msg.
__________________
Sniff my Diff ;)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old March 2nd, 2004, 09:15 PM
jstrong98's Avatar
jstrong98
Status: Offline
Jon Strong
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Pennsville NJ USA
Posts: 98
I was told by the PO of my 94 D-90 that the synchromesh trans needs to be taken into neutral from 1st gear before shifting to second. I just pull down out of first, let the lever come to neutral, then pull over and down into second. I have done this and so far no grinding. It took a little getting used to, having to make an extra move with the shift lever, but if it saves my gears its worth it.

Not sure where he got the info, but it works.

JS
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old March 2nd, 2004, 10:06 PM
Art Vigil's Avatar
Art Vigil
Status: Offline
Arthur Vigil
None
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 731
Jon,
What you do is called "double-clutching" and is very effective way to save wear on your synchros.
If you drive any manual transmission vehicle it's worth your while to learn this skill.
I was going to post a more detailed explanation but am feeling a bit lazy tonight.
If interested type "double clutching" into google, there are a bunch of great articles there.
__________________
Arthur M Vigil
Colorado Native
Former owner of:
'95 RRC - 3.9V8 Rimmer Supercharged!
'72 Series III 88" NADA Turner 2.25 petrol (Lovely Rita)
'95 RRC Brooklands/TWR Edition 3.9V8
'97 D90SW NAS #2426 - 3.9V8 Rimmer Supercharged!
'95 D90ST NAS#2620 - Original owner
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old March 2nd, 2004, 10:18 PM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,522
Registry
5w20 gear oil? I have never seen that before???
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old March 2nd, 2004, 10:22 PM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,522
Registry
and to add I thought the Redline ATF was highly reccomended? maybe i am wrong?? I am really confused now... is it ATF or gear oil in the R-380????
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old March 3rd, 2004, 04:27 AM
evilfij's Avatar
evilfij
Status: Offline
evilfij
I have never seen a rover in person
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: on the internet
Posts: 14,688
Redline MTL, not ATF.

LRNA said ATF in trans but it is too thin to protect the synchros, MTL works great.

5w20 I am a bit sceptical of for several reasons:

1. Motor oils (generally) attach soft metals (like the synchros in R380s)
2. MTL is 5w 30 spec in motor oil and it is thinner than MT-94 (to my understanding), so 5w 20 would be too thin. Redline MT-4 (I think) is a thicker trans lube that is closer to a full gear lube spec.
3. Motor oil as a trans lube is common but I have never heard it recommended in an R380

Ron

PS my R380 is slow to second. Once you get used to it no biggy. I still have ATF in it as I have not gotton around to changing it and the AFT is only 3000 miles old.
__________________
*not legal advice*
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old March 3rd, 2004, 05:46 AM
Berty's Avatar
Berty
Status: Offline
Brett Hurrell
D90 Hardtop 300Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Norfolk, England
Posts: 79
Ron, you're correct. Don't use engine oil the 5w/20 I am referring to is a gear oil.
Check out this link.


difflock

Go to Stores, Difflock Ltd>> Oils & Fluids & scroll down.
Or if you can't be bothered here are the specs.

This fully Synthetic Ovoline Gearbox Oil will transform the ease and speed of gearchanges on manual transmissions as well as reducing wear, lowering transmission temperatures and improving fuel consumption.

It is especially recomended as a far superior replacement for the ordinary, plain mineral ATF or semi synthetic MTF fluids found in Land Rover's LT77 and R380 5 speed manual gearboxes as fitted to Defenders, Discoveries and Range Rovers.

The advanced additives used within its leading edge formulation include a multifunctional viscosity index improver to impart maximum shear stability to the product and thereby protect moving parts and give outstanding low temperature performance (eliminating those notchy gearchanges on cold mornings).

Its ability to reduce frictional losses and both stress and wear, make it particularly beneficial to offroading or race and rally vehicles where transmissions are frequently pushed to their limits.

It is fully compatible with ATF or MTF fluids however its full benefits will only be achieved if as much as possible of the existing mineral oil is drained out and replaced with MT75D (Note you don't need to flush the box before using MT75D)

Fully Synthetic MT75D outlasts ordinary plain mineral ATF type fluids by 2 to 3 times, therefore drain intervals can be doubled if required.

Use this handy guide to fluids and capacities to work out your vehicle's needs (to the nearest Litre)

All Land Rover, Range Rover & Discovery 5 speed Manual Gearboxes require 3 Litres of MT75D
Range Rover Borg Warner Transfer Gearbox requires 2 Litres of MT75D

Note this oil is not best suited for use in very early 4 speed LT95 main gearboxes (fitted in 90/110s up to 1984) or 'Santana' LT85 5 speed gearboxes as fitted to early V8 petrol, 90 and 110 Land Rovers up to around 1989. If you have an LT95 or LT85 gearbox then we recommend you use our Trojan Fully Synthetic Gear Oil (Item code DF442)

Specifications (5W/20):

Allison C4
Ford M2C 138CJ
Ford M2C 166H
Ford M2C 186A
Ford Mercon
GM Dexron II-D
GM Dexron II-E


I was suggesting this oil as an alternative to the Dealer supplied MTF94. Check the customer reviews.
You should be able to find an equivalent in the US.
I personally use MTF94.

Brett
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old March 3rd, 2004, 06:36 AM
evilfij's Avatar
evilfij
Status: Offline
evilfij
I have never seen a rover in person
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: on the internet
Posts: 14,688
Berty,

Thanks for clearing that up. I am still a bit wary of that difflock oil. The fact that it meets Dextron specs says it is an ATF weight formulation (which goes along with the 5w 20 rating). It sounds like a synthetic ATF, which is fine but IMO is too thin to prtect the synchros in an R380.

The way it is sold (prevents notchy gear changes when cold) indicates that they are sacraficing performance and protection for driveability. Not good in my opinion. If you want slick shifting when cold run a strait ATF, synthetic would even be slicker, but it does not cushion the synchros and I don''t feel that they last long term (warranty history on Lt77 and R380s in the US would seem to bear this out).

Best to go with the Redline MTL if you are in the US, or the LR spec MTF94 if you live elsewhere.

Ron
__________________
*not legal advice*
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old March 3rd, 2004, 09:36 AM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,522
Registry
Ron what viscosity do you use?
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old March 3rd, 2004, 10:00 AM
Berty's Avatar
Berty
Status: Offline
Brett Hurrell
D90 Hardtop 300Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Norfolk, England
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally posted by evilfij
I am still a bit wary of that difflock oil. The fact that it meets Dextron specs says it is an ATF weight formulation (which goes along with the 5w 20 rating). It sounds like a synthetic ATF, which is fine but IMO is too thin to prtect the synchros in an R380.
Ron
I prefer to use the MTF94 for these reasons, although I'm sure the Difflock oil would still be an improvement over standard ATF.
The people in the UK using it seem very happy with the shift improvements (I do know people personally using it) although they'd probably be just a happy with MTF94 or Redlines MTL.

Cheers

Brett

p.s. I Don't work for Difflock
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old March 3rd, 2004, 11:34 AM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,522
Registry
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old January 27th, 2005, 04:00 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,075
Registry
Guys, how do you find this stuff? I've stopped by a couple different transmission shops today and asked if they can get MT75D, or MTF94 and I get crazy looks. I know the folks in the UK (Difflock.com) are high on MT75, but I have no idea how to find the stuff here in the US and imagine shipping a case from the UK is pretty expensive.

Clay
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old January 27th, 2005, 04:05 PM
Mike Hippert's Avatar
Mike Hippert
Status: Offline
D-90Slut/Stalker,SNLPres
94 D-90 Grinding Rover
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester NH USA
Posts: 4,789
Well I checked out Redline's website http://www.redlineoil.com/ and looked up dealers near you http://www.redlineoil.com/dealers_re...11&submit.y=11 and it looks like Autozone or Advanced auto is the place to be. I bought it at a local speed shop for mine. Worked great!
__________________
Don't forget to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
first then ask questions later! The loose nut behind the wheel
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old January 27th, 2005, 04:51 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,075
Registry
Thanks Mike. Advance Auto is everywhere around here so that'll be no problem. Are you using MTL, MT90, or the 75W90?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tervis Tumblers 2nd run shawnpalmer For Sale - Parts 35 January 13th, 2009 12:37 PM
Just got my defender- grinding gears! ollieskins Smaller Projects 7 June 15th, 2008 10:26 AM
Well, that explains the grinding I guess... Trigger Misc. Chit-Chat 2 November 25th, 2005 11:44 PM
taking care of the infamous 3" grinding oldscratchggf Defender Technical Discussions 14 November 14th, 2005 01:41 AM
Grinding into Second Gear? azdefender Defender Technical Discussions 4 March 9th, 2004 01:44 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:22 PM.


Copyright