200tdi won't start? - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:45 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
200tdi won't start?

This has been a major pain and I think I know what I have to do next but thought I'd see if I was forgetting something simple. This a canadian engine I bought 18 months ago and finally got into my ltwt a couple months back. It failed to work - no pressure in number one cylinder and half what it should be in other three cylinders. So I pulled and took it apart. Heads carbonized and valves encrusted so they wouldn't close. Injector in number 3 cylinder frozen in place. So head gets a valve job, new tming belt placed, 4 new injectors purchased (expensive), new lift pump, new starter and new rings. Got it back into ltwt last week. It actually ran for short time Sunday but I didn't have radiator hooked up so I only let it run for 30 seconds. Yesterday I tried to start it again without luck. I tightened all fuel line connections. Loosened pipes to the injectors and fuel is getting to all injectors. Current plan is to check timing tomorrow, but if everything lines up - pull the injection pump. Only thing I can figure is the pump isn't putting out the necessary pressure to open up the injectors. I checked cylinder pressures and I think those are sufficient. Just don't know why it worked and now it won't. Any thoughts?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 09:14 AM
bitz's Avatar
bitz
Status: Offline
Jon
NAS D90, 85 D110 CSW, 66 Dormobile
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Florence, MA USA
Posts: 621
I guess the real question is, Is fuel getting into the cumbustion chamber? Maybe give it a shot of ether just to see if it pops. Definitely sounds like timing to me though.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 10:35 AM
kjva
Status: Offline
Ken Jackson
1985 110 Wagon
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dillwyn VA USA
Posts: 352
Is there any smoke from the exhaust when you try to start it ?.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 10:44 AM
tomaco1's Avatar
tomaco1
Status: Offline
T.mac
83 110
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 3,694
Registry
could the hot lead to the injector pump of come off?
i only say this because everytime i have a problem with mine, its something something obvious I overlooked.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 12:54 PM
bitz's Avatar
bitz
Status: Offline
Jon
NAS D90, 85 D110 CSW, 66 Dormobile
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Florence, MA USA
Posts: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaco1
could the hot lead to the injector pump of come off?
i only say this because everytime i have a problem with mine, its something something obvious I overlooked.
I dont' think so becuase he said he cracked the fuel lines and fuel was coming out. If the lead came off the lines wouldn't be squirting.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:08 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
UPDATE: Checked the TDC mark on the 200tdi damper and it aligns correctly with TDC (not sure you can do that on the 300, but there is a fin on the timing belt cover that acts as a marker on the 200tdi). Anyway, sprayed one sqirt of brake cleaner and it starts right up and runs smoothly - no smoke in the exhaust. Throttle accelerates the engine smoothly, no issues. Turn it off and it won't restart without a single short shot of brake cleaner. (Lots of jokes around the shop about running a tube from the cab to air cleaner for the morning start). Anyway, I pulled number one glow plug and checked it out (haven't done the others yet). Also ran a wire directly from battery to glowplugs to bypass the relay and it still won't start without the brake cleaner.

I've got two possible explainations: a. compression is too low in the cylinders, but then why would it run fine after it is started. b. injection pump not getting enough fuel to cylinder at startup and it's running lean, but I don't know how to check that without pulling the injection pump and taking it to the diesel shop. And I really don't want to pull the injection pump if I don't have to.

Any additional ideas would be appreciated.

BTW- I do plan to pull the round cover and check the timing a little more throughly, but didn't have the time today. But it is grossly okay.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:45 PM
discotdi
Status: Offline
Todd Miller
Land Rover
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fairburn, GA USA
Posts: 1,029
Chris I feel your pain. My 300 is still not 100% right after my timing belt change nightmare. I don't have any advice but do have a question. Did you know the engine was in such bad condition when you bought it? I guess what I am really asking is did someone in Canada misrepresent the condition of the engine? Would it be prudent to name this person or Co. so others are not taken in, if that is what happened?

Good luck I totally understand the frustration.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 02:37 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
I was told it was out of a 115K Disco with no problems. And I did buy it from someone who occasionally sells engines on this site. I enjoy working on my vehicles, so I sort of take this stuff in stride. I'll figure it out eventually. As we used to say in medical school, you can't buy experience like this
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 03:27 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Offline
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,242
Registry
Have you tried giving it throttle to start? The fueling increases with throttle....

It should not need glow plugs to start.

The damper MUST align with TDC as it is on the crank. Normally TDC is set by locating the notch on the fly wheel to the clutch housing drain. Have you checked valve and pump timing?

Starting a glow plugged engine with starting fluid is a recipe for a destroyed engine.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 04:44 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
I tried throttle at start - no luck.

I know glowplugs shouldn't be necessary, but in wondering if maybe the pressure is insufficient - glowplug might help.

New timing belt was placed prior to installing engine - it is not the first I've done - although I suppose I could have screwed it up this time. That's why I did the rough check today - to see if I was out 180 degrees or something.

My plan after mulling it this afternoon is to:
Do a compression test again.
Fix the flywheel and see if the pin will go into the injection pump.
If the timing belt is off, redo that and if the timing belt is correct, pull the injection pump
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 05:06 PM
pendy's Avatar
pendy
Status: Offline
jim pendleton
89'd90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: andover, ks usa
Posts: 2,341
Crack the fittings loose at the injectors and crank while watching for pressure. Eyewear required~!

Disconnect and reconnect the power connection at the shut off valve on the injection pump a few times to hear the strength of the solenoid if no good pressure to all injectors.

Not recomended, but I use WD 40 to hot start a diesel. Some lubricant in the mixture as opposed to ether.

Why do you suspect timing if you had that apart?

JP

Your injection place could not get tips for the 200 tdi injectors?
__________________
legend in my own mind

Advice is only as good as the person applying it--
Don't make me give you bad advice!

Lemons or lemonaide, whatever your taste provides.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 05:40 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
To address an earlier question: When I queried the canadian seller of this 200tdi prior to buying it, his reply was - "I bought it in England from a guy I do business with often, he told me the engine was a good strong unit, ran perfectly when he removed it from the Disco." A few months ago when I informed him of the problems with the engine, the response was less than adequate.

Follow-up Post:

Pendy
The problem with the 200 tdi injector is it is a "two spring" injector and those are only now finding use in US vehicles. So my guys can rebuild 300tdi injectors, but not 200tdi injectors. I gave them to George at RDS to send back to UK to be rebuilt. The pump however is a bosch VE so they can handle that.

The only problem with pulling the pump is that I think I'll need to redo the timing belt if I pull the injection pump. And as for the timing, I'm just trying to start with easy/cheap things and work toward hard/expensive fixes. I would hate to go through all thia an find something simple I didn't think about.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 06:59 PM
kjva
Status: Offline
Ken Jackson
1985 110 Wagon
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dillwyn VA USA
Posts: 352
If you are not getting any smoke from the exhaust then there is no fuel getting through. Even a hot start engine like a Detroit two stroke will smoke cold, similarly on the old pony start diesels (yes I am that old ) would smoke when turning on low or 1/2 compression. If the injectors and timing are correct has to be the fuel pump.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 07:14 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
I'm developing a hypothesis that the injection pump is not developing enough pressure at the lower rpm of the start Then when the start occurs with the help of the brake fluid/WD40 or what ever, the rpm jumps to 600 or greater and the pump at that point generates enough pressure. So I'll be pulling a fuel pump tomorrow and maybe by next week I'll know if that was the problem

That is unless someone says: STOP - it's the ......
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 10:04 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Offline
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,242
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier
The problem with the 200 tdi injector is it is a "two spring" injector and those are only now finding use in US vehicles. So my guys can rebuild 300tdi injectors, but not 200tdi injectors. I gave them to George at RDS to send back to UK to be rebuilt. The pump however is a bosch VE so they can handle that.
BS.

All the VWs from 1998 to 2004 use the exact same style injectors and there are hundreds of thousands of those on the road in the US. Replacing the tips is simple. I've done multiple sets. Adjusting break pressures is no different than regular injectors. It is just harder to set the pilot spring, as you need a special setup, but that is not needed.

I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with the injectors.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old July 23rd, 2009, 10:33 PM
pendy's Avatar
pendy
Status: Offline
jim pendleton
89'd90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: andover, ks usa
Posts: 2,341
He already has replacement injectors though. Red

Did you have the new injectors tested before installing? Have seen new ones be sticky. You guys have enough diesels in the shop you should have a tester for injectors by now. Chris

Also there is a nice tool that can hold the T-belt flange and let you change the pump without loosing belt tension. Dingcraft makes it I think. 200tdi belt change is a pain in the a@@ with the gaskets that have to be replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90
BS.

All the VWs from 1998 to 2004 use the exact same style injectors and there are hundreds of thousands of those on the road in the US. Replacing the tips is simple. I've done multiple sets. Adjusting break pressures is no different than regular injectors. It is just harder to set the pilot spring, as you need a special setup, but that is not needed.

I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with the injectors.
__________________
legend in my own mind

Advice is only as good as the person applying it--
Don't make me give you bad advice!

Lemons or lemonaide, whatever your taste provides.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old July 24th, 2009, 07:10 AM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
The injector tester at the diesel shop is neat - you spray up on to a surface and see opening pressurses, spray pattern, etc. I haven't seen the need to buy one. We only have three diesels at the moment (all mine) and nobody wants to play with them but me - so I'm the one getting all the experience and having all the fun I have a drawing of the tool to hold the flange - I may try to fabricate one this morning and see if I can get the pump out without doing the rest.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old July 24th, 2009, 09:31 AM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
I originally put timing belt on with engine off ltwt. In taking injection pump off I rotated crankshaft and pinned pump then went under to pin the flywheel The freaking hole is squarely above the crossmember - nonremovable in ltwt . Anyway another lesson learned.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old July 24th, 2009, 12:00 PM
pendy's Avatar
pendy
Status: Offline
jim pendleton
89'd90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: andover, ks usa
Posts: 2,341
Can you drill a hole in the crossmember and weld some tube in the hole you drill?

I have helped people buy testers as little as 100.00 You see them on ebay sometimes as well. I know I use mine often.

You can soak injectors and get cleaning solution warm. Then run solution through tester and get buildup of gunk out of the injectors as well. Another reason to buy one. At some point it becomes as necessary as a compression gauge.
__________________
legend in my own mind

Advice is only as good as the person applying it--
Don't make me give you bad advice!

Lemons or lemonaide, whatever your taste provides.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old July 24th, 2009, 01:21 PM
Hoosier's Avatar
Hoosier
Status: Offline
Chris Hinkle
More than I need
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 634
Okay - I'll start looking for a tester (if you run across one on eBay let me know). But the pump is at the diesel shop now and hopefully I'll get it back next week - nice and up to spec. After describing my issues, they suggested a sticking metering valve in the injector pump? Anyway we will see. I fabricated a timing belt tool, but not being able to lock the flywheel tells me I need to pop the timing cover and do it again by the book.

I thought about drilling a hole, but it would have to be at least a 1.5 " to get the tool into the flywheel cover.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Tags
200tdi, start, tdi

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HELP 94 d90 will not start ripp2002 Defender Technical Discussions 64 August 25th, 2005 08:43 AM
difference: Disco 200tdi and Defender 200tdi? jaherring Defender Technical Discussions 30 June 3rd, 2005 10:10 AM
95 won't start, possible fuel priming issue? jcasteel Defender Technical Discussions 1 March 15th, 2005 09:45 AM
Rats! Now my D90 won't start. No power to fuel pump jcasteel Defender Technical Discussions 8 March 15th, 2005 09:42 AM
Ignition Relocation = No Start...Help JRowe Defender Technical Discussions 5 March 8th, 2004 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:30 AM.


Copyright