200TDi Starter Replacement - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old February 27th, 2014, 05:13 PM
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200TDi Starter Replacement

Hello,

I Just pulled the starter on my 200 TDi and man do I want to kick someone at LR in the nuts for that design.

- Disconnected battery
- Dropped the down pipe
- Disconnected spade (already dangling I plugged it back in and the starter still didn't work with battery connected)
- Disconnected ground wire (13mm) and 12v wires
- Removed 3x17mm fasteners (stud & nut, Bolt, bolt and nut). Giant pain to get leverage but I ended up resting my 10" 1/2 drive extension against a 1/2" breaker bar I pinned against the body and that finally gave me enough leverage to get the stud and nut out (lowest fastener did the same thing for the nut and bolt). I had to sacrifice some knuckle skin to get the bolt out (closest to the engine block) I laid across the fender and did this one from above.

Well all that to ask my question:

My new starter isn't identical to the old one:



Do I need to tie those two studs together and then ground it or just ground one or the other?

Here is the old starter:



I have the yellow jumper pointing to the spade and a positive and negative jumper connected to the appropriate studs. to activate the starter do I jump the spade to ground or 12v? either way the new one is going in I just figured I'd test it before I shelve it.

Thanks

Oscar
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  #2  
Old February 27th, 2014, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
I Just pulled the starter on my 200 TDi and man do I want to kick someone at LR in the nuts for that design.
Same here. I hear it's worse if you have a disco 200tdi.

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Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
Do I need to tie those two studs together and then ground it or just ground one or the other?
No. Do NOT tie the two studs together.

1. Ground is through the body of the starter.
2. The stud already wired to the starter motor is what actually sends power to the starter motor. Do not touch that stud.
3. The stud NOT wired to the starter motor should be attached to +12V HOT (directly to the battery on a thick gauge wire)
4. The little spade connector is the starter signal wire. When you put +12V on that spade connector, the solenoid will actuate, sending electricity from +12V HOT to the starter motor.

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Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
to activate the starter do I jump the spade to ground or 12v?
Jump the spade connector to +12V.

However, before you do that, you must place 12V on the terminal that is NOT connected to the starter motor.

The way you have everything wired in the last picture is correct. The yellow wire should have +12V on it to start the motor.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 06:01 PM
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Ok so the ground wire that was previously attached to the strap on the tail end of the starter does not need to be used?

So connect the 12V cable from the truck to the stud on the solenoid and then the spade and that's it?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 06:03 PM
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Ok so the ground wire that was previously attached to the strap on the tail end of the starter does not need to be used?
1. If you are testing outside of the engine, then use it if you want. You can also clamp the jumper cable directly to the tail end of the starter. It doesn't matter.
2. If you are installing the starter motor into the engine, then the ground wire should be attached to the 200tdi engine block - NOT the starter itself.

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So connect the 12V cable from the truck to the stud on the solenoid and then the spade and that's it?
And attach ground to the starter body.
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  #5  
Old February 27th, 2014, 06:26 PM
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I just did the same swap on my 2.5NA. Check the ground studs on your new starter, on mine they were painted over and I used a wire brush on them so they would actually ground.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 06:38 PM
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Ok long day for me I'm not getting it. My bad.

Do I need to connect anything to A or B?

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Old February 27th, 2014, 06:41 PM
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I used one of them as the ground to both the engine and chassis as with the old one. Mine had 2 earthing straps the the ground stud; one to the engine and one to the chassis.

Is your original a Valeo w/ a Lucas label?
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Old February 27th, 2014, 07:22 PM
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Ok long day for me I'm not getting it. My bad.

Do I need to connect anything to A or B?
It's okay the part that you are not getting is that a and b are not electrical terminals. They are just screws that are holding the starter motor together.

Does that make sense
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Old February 27th, 2014, 07:26 PM
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No way. Ha awesome.

Ok so when you say attach ground to starter body where exactly do I attach it?
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Old February 28th, 2014, 08:07 AM
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Ok so when you say attach ground to starter body where exactly do I attach it?
Anywhere you like that is metal (except for +12V points obviously). The starter body screws are one place you CAN connect (which is why some people have ground wires attached to them)

As an experiment, hook up your motor as in the "A - B" diagram. Make sure +12V is going to the power terminal and the spade connector.

Take the ground clamp from the battery and touch it to various points on the starter motor. You will understand what I mean then.
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Old February 28th, 2014, 09:12 PM
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The wire that connects to the spade does it connect directly to the Ignition key crank position or does it go through something else (like a fuse or relay or something)?

Starter is in and the truck still doesn't crank. Multimeter has a dead battery. So I will reverify all voltages and grounds are set tomorrow.

I hope the signal wire to the solenoid got cut somewhere and I just need to rewire the length between the key and the solenoid.
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  #12  
Old February 28th, 2014, 09:52 PM
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There is a relay. Google the workshop manual and download it to see the wiring schematics.
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Old February 28th, 2014, 09:59 PM
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I've been looking for a schematic but since my truck is a "Bitsa" truck I'm not sure which one to use.

I just looked at this (19J) to get an idea of what I might see:



Most of the schematics I've seen tonight show the signal wire to the solenoid as White/ Red. So I'm assuming I'll see the W/R wire off the key/ ignition switch and try and trace it to the splice that goes to the glow plug relay.

I haven't tested an ignition switch yet so I'm guessing it will be straight forward testing as I cycle through key positions. Is there anything that plays out counter-intuitively?

Thanks again everyone.

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Old February 28th, 2014, 11:18 PM
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Whit/red should go to the starter relay, not the glow plug relay. Just look at the relays. It should click on when you go to start.
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  #15  
Old February 28th, 2014, 11:45 PM
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Depending on your bitsa, white/red will go to the starter relay and the glow plug relay, I've been doing a 91 main harness into a 85 2.5td 90. if you got an earlier harness with no factory glow relay, the glow is operated by the spring action just before the starter operates.

The drawing you show is of an early wire drawing, do you have a drawing from 1991-on?
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Old March 1st, 2014, 12:16 AM
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Thanks John B^2!

Do all trucks employ a starter relay? That would be a simple fix if it's just a gummed up relay. I wonder if that relay has been slowly failing. I assumed it was the starter that was on its last legs.

I have a few drawings but I don't think I have a good one since I'm able to find items wired in that I know I don't have. Like mention of Engine control modules and IR lights. If you have a link or any advice as to which one would help me the most I would appreciate it.

I don't know what harness is in my truck. The majority of my truck is an 85 ROW truck but it has a 93 body and then of course the 200TDi. I've come across a fair bit of hack wiring that I have slowly been removing and I think I'm down to about to the 10% hack wire level now. Most of what remains looks like factory harness.

I will pull the dash apart tomorrow and get the old multimeter plugged in and find out where the fault lies, hopefully. How hard can it be right?
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Old March 1st, 2014, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
In summary: ground here and there, but where?
The advice you have been given so far is sound with the exception of grounding.

I have no unearthly idea (no pun intended) why Land Rover would wear a belt and suspenders when it comes to grounding the starter.

The starter picks up a solid ground off the engine block and really doesn't need further ground straps attached to the back of the starter.
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  #18  
Old March 1st, 2014, 08:52 AM
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You dont say that you have tested the whit/red wire @ the starter for signal while someone turns the key.

Getting a battery for your meter and having someone turn the key while you check that signal wire @ the starter for 12v is the course of action to take BEFORE tracing the wire from the ignition switch through the dash and relays.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 03:07 PM
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I just checked it and I get no voltage while turning the key.

I jumped a wire from the spade on the ignition key to the solenoid got a few week cranks then nothing. the only thing I get now when I jump the wire to the solenoid is a change in sound from my fuel pump, so I'm guessing the load is from the starter but no crank.

Any I'll effects of jumping the starter solenoid direct to the battery positive?

Update:

Dropped the starter.

Jumped the starter on the ground by hooking up my battery jumper. Positive to the outside post on the solenoid, ground to the stud on the tail of the housing. I jumped from my positive connector to the spade and the starter spins freely.

What could cause the starter not to crank the engine?

When I jump the solenoid when it was still in the truck I didn't disconnect the spade at the ignition key I jumped to the connected wire. maybe there is a short in that wire that's interfering with the crank?

I'm going to go reconnect the starter and disconnect the spade at the ignition. jump from the ignition to the solenoid. After that I will check the red white wire to ground and see if its shorted somewhere.

update 2:

the red white wire (10 gauge?) ties into another red white wire (smaller gauge maybe 14) and it does not show continuity to ground.



there is also no continuity from the white red wire to the spade connector at the starter.

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Old March 1st, 2014, 05:20 PM
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