200Tdi performance - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old September 21st, 2016, 09:58 AM
Azarur
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200Tdi performance

Have been spending weekends testing the 200Tdi 110 ahead of declaring it "done." Since we started test runs, we have made several modifications. Significantly increased insulation in the engine bay to avoid heat transfer into the passenger compartment, got rid of drum brakes and went with larger discs all around, and made some tweaks to the timing.

I'm pretty happy with the end results. Without AC on, we get up to about 80 mph at roughly 3500 rpm @ 5th gear. We have a short-housing r380 mated to the l77. EGTs plateau after about 2 minutes at that speed at about 550 degrees, which is low and may not be a true reading. Importantly though, temperature becomes stable and cooling system copes well. I can get a comfortable cruising speed of 70 mph at about 2500 rpm.

I do have to downshift and settle for a mere 50-55 as soon as I hit a hill of even medium incline. AC doesn't seem to steal too much power, and neither did a car full of teenage boys.

I do love how much torque I have at the low end and how responsive (yes -- Responsive!) the 110 is.

We debated much going with a bigger intercooler and pushing more fuel in. In the end we decided to keep the stock turbo and IC to not compromise axes or brakes and preserve fuel economy. We get about 30mpg on Highway.

Would love to hear what other folks think of those numbers.
Thanks!,

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  #2  
Old September 21st, 2016, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azarur View Post
made some tweaks to the timing.
So it is an otherwise stock 200TDI with the timing adjusted?
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Old September 21st, 2016, 10:16 AM
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Performance sounds good. A larger intercooler will not add any power. The stock one is big enough for the stock turbo.
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  #4  
Old September 21st, 2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamSanta85 View Post
So it is an otherwise stock 200TDI with the timing adjusted?
Pretty much. We re bored the mono block (0.02) and put sleeves on the pistons, slightly bigger injectors and adjusted timing for the about 5% higher fuel flow. Otherwise stock.

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Old September 21st, 2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Performance sounds good. A larger intercooler will not add any power. The stock one is big enough for the stock turbo.
Agreed. The idea was bigger injectors and tune the pump up, which would lead to higher gas temps, which would benefit from larger IC. In the end the 10 or so extra hp we might get just did not justify the extra dough and more importantly the strain on the rest of the system.

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Old September 21st, 2016, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Azarur View Post
Agreed. The idea was bigger injectors and tune the pump up, which would lead to higher gas temps, which would benefit from larger IC. In the end the 10 or so extra hp we might get just did not justify the extra dough and more importantly the strain on the rest of the system.

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Okay, you are missing my point or not understanding how the system works. The intercooler only cares about the turbo. It is more than large enough for the maximum boost that a 200TDI turbo can produce. Adding a larger intercooler will have zero effect on intake air temperature and you will not be able to increase fueling any higher than with the stock intercooler. A larger intercooler will only help if you change to a turbo that can produce more boost pressure.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 11:16 AM
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Yes.
Another option is to buy yourself a manual boost controller and adjust it so the boost goes up to about 16 PSI.
Be sure and not let it get over 18 or you'll blow a head gasket.
With the boost turned up you can then adjust the fueling.
We start with adjusting it based on how much coal you roll.
All the time watching EGTs.

Are you sure you are running the 1.4 T-case gearing?
Sounds more like you have a 1.22 T-case to be slowing down that much.

You also stated you have an R380 and an LT77, but it's one or the other and never both.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Okay, you are missing my point or not understanding how the system works. The intercooler only cares about the turbo. It is more than large enough for the maximum boost that a 200TDI turbo can produce. Adding a larger intercooler will have zero effect on intake air temperature and you will not be able to increase fueling any higher than with the stock intercooler. A larger intercooler will only help if you change to a turbo that can produce more boost pressure.
I thought that even on a stock turbo, if you turned up the fuel you needs a bigger intercooler?
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Old September 21st, 2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Yes.
Another option is to buy yourself a manual boost controller and adjust it so the boost goes up to about 16 PSI.
Be sure and not let it get over 18 or you'll blow a head gasket.
With the boost turned up you can then adjust the fueling.
We start with adjusting it based on how much coal you roll.
All the time watching EGTs.
The stock 200TDI turbo won't do more than 18 psi, ever. You can throw away the wastegate and nothing more will happen. At that boost level, a larger intercooler does nothing, based on my testing.

IMO, more boost does not cause problems. High EGT causes problems. The VNTs are putting out around 25 psi and people and not blowing head gaskets because of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaco1 View Post
I thought that even on a stock turbo, if you turned up the fuel you needs a bigger intercooler?
The intercooler cools the intake air. The air is heated when compressed. The stock intercooler, at stock boost levels is cooling the air as much as is possible and a larger intercooler does not make any difference. Fueling adjustments have nothing to do with the intake air cooling.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 12:03 PM
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If that is your egt reading, it explains why you are loosing so much umph/speed on hills. Your fueling is quite low. Even a stock 200-300 tdi gets up to 800-850 @ highway speeds. 400 is an average temp @ idle @ a traffic light once up to temp, out driving.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 12:23 PM
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There is a 200TDI in our workshop that someone used a manual boost controller on that was putting out over 20 PSI that blew the back out of the #4 cylinder head gasket.
I think you'll find that the TDI turbo will put out well over 20 PSI given the right conditions.
Agree there are gearing and wind resistance dynamics, but the turbo physically can output higher pressures than you think, especially with a cone full flow air filter without restriction.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 12:33 PM
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What are you using for an EGT gage? Digital? Are you sure it's in F or C? 550C is 1022F.
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  #13  
Old September 21st, 2016, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
If that is your egt reading, it explains why you are loosing so much umph/speed on hills. Your fueling is quite low. Even a stock 200-300 tdi gets up to 800-850 @ highway speeds. 400 is an average temp @ idle @ a traffic light once up to temp, out driving.
Hey Doug
Yes, but my problem is that I don't know if the reading is correct. I'm using a k thermocouple and a custom gauge to read it, so it is entirely possible that I have the voltage factor wrong. So I'm unwilling to judge much until I figure if the reading is correct.

It does seem to me that the power loss on the hilly terrain is excessive. In 5th gear can't get the engine to rev above 2000 rpm even with the accelerator fully depressed, so I have to downshift to 4th.

May just bite the bullet and get it to a pro to adjust.

Thanks.

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------ Follow up post added September 21st, 2016 12:02 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post

You also stated you have an R380 and an LT77, but it's one or the other and never both.
Yes. Duh. I replaced the lt77 with the r380 and it's mated to the lt230 xfer box.


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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:03 PM
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Its important enough you may want to buy another unit just to know the baseline. I get that everyone loves digital but a simple VDO analog for around $200 with their thermo couple might be wise to get her set up and then sell it here for a tad less once tuned. There are some here who thrive so hard on a slight discount... well it will sell quickly.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azarur View Post
I'm pretty happy with the end results. Without AC on, we get up to about 80 mph at roughly 3500 rpm @ 5th gear. We have a short-housing r380 mated to the l77. EGTs plateau after about 2 minutes at that speed at about 550 degrees, which is low and may not be a true reading. Importantly though, temperature becomes stable and cooling system copes well. I can get a comfortable cruising speed of 70 mph at about 2500 rpm.
70@2500 and 80@3500 does not compute. Maybe check more carefully as you can't have both of those with the same gearing.

If you are doing a real 80 mph, then power is fine. Make sure it is real though as the stock speedo reads high.

"We have a short-housing r380 mated to the l77." What does that mean?
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Azarur View Post
It does seem to me that the power loss on the hilly terrain is excessive. In 5th gear can't get the engine to rev above 2000 rpm even with the accelerator fully depressed, so I have to downshift to 4th.
If you let the rpm drop below 2000, you will not get boost and you must gear down. That is the way of the turbo.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Okay, you are missing my point or not understanding how the system works. The intercooler only cares about the turbo. It is more than large enough for the maximum boost that a 200TDI turbo can produce. Adding a larger intercooler will have zero effect on intake air temperature and you will not be able to increase fueling any higher than with the stock intercooler. A larger intercooler will only help if you change to a turbo that can produce more boost pressure.
Wait if an IC is like a radiator then the same rules should apply. Larger cooling surface area= more heat transfer?? What am I missing?
I understand it is relevant to ambient temps.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:20 PM
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The other factor to consider in a large intercooler is it has more volume, and thus the turbo has to fill that larger plenum before it gets to the engine. You can get more heat transfer, but it is not beneficial until your turbo can fill it efficiently, or the stock intercooler is too small for your larger turbo. Intake air temp (IAT) is not the same as exhaust gas temp (EGT). What is trying to be communicated above is that even if you added a larger intercooler to drop IAT, it would not have any significant effect on EGT.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:20 PM
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With a disco 200Tdi, exMOD LT77 and a 1.2 TC I run 70@2500RPM.

You can plug in your tranny and TC serial numbers into the Ashcroft website and it will tell you exactly what you have.

If it's a digital gage, you should be able to program it pretty easily. I run an Auber meter that was in C and Pa for temp and pressure by default. I thought I had a bad thermocouple initially. It also had an option for what type of thermocouple is was running. In my case it was a K type but was selectable on the meter.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by solarguy View Post
Wait if an IC is like a radiator then the same rules should apply. Larger cooling surface area= more heat transfer?? What am I missing?
I understand it is relevant to ambient temps.
Yes, but once you have cooled the air close to ambient, a larger heat exchanger does not cool it any further. A heat exchanger can only have a certain approach temperature (the difference between the ambient and the turbo outlet). Once the approach is small, more surface area does very little.

Here is my testing... I've had a 200TDI for 10 years. I run a boost controller with peak boost at 18 psi. I have fueling adjusted to peak out the EGT. This gives around 650 C at 2000 rpm rising to 730 C at 3000 rpm with sustained full throttle. I've spent a lot of time fine tuning and testing this engine so that I know the EGT profile very closely. Last year I changed the stock intercooler for an Allisport double core intercooler. Maximum EGT was unchanged after installing the intercooler. I do not have an IAT gauge, but I must assume there was no improvement in IAT and that the stock intercooler was already more than large enough. I knew I should have check IAT before spending so much on an intercooler.

The problem in this community is that there is very little real scientific testing. Every other auto enthusiast group tests the shit out of every mod, but here it is all seat of the pants.
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