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  #1  
Old March 27th, 2014, 08:21 PM
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Mike Simpson
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200tdi not starting

Just put a rebuilt injection pump on my 200tdi and now it won't start. The fuel lines are bled, I had a buddy drag me around the block in 2nd gear. I'm getting just a little bit of white smoke but no combustion.


My suspicion is that I've messed up the timing. When I removed the pump, I left the locking pin on the flywheel but did not lock the pump since I figured the tech would mess with that anyway. When I put it back on, I bolted the gear to the pump and then rotated it back and forth a bit until the pin dropped in.


Is it possible for this to be 180 out? I didn't think so, since I was under the impression that the locking pin will go in at only one location out of 360, and the gear can only go on the pump in one orientation. Not only that, but I marked all 3 timing gears and the belt and all of the marks lined up perfectly.

Any advice would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old March 27th, 2014, 08:26 PM
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John B.
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First try crack all of the injection lines. Crank until they are spitting fuel and tighten one at a time.

If you are getting fuel and it then does not run, the timing may be out.... There is only one place for the pin to engage. Assuming you set the belt correctly, the pump could have been done wrong (flange put on the wrong way). The flange is not keyed to the shaft and the rebuilder needs to set it correctly.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 09:12 PM
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I bled the injectors individually before giving up on the starter and resorting to the "pull start" technique. All of them squirted fuel, so I'm good there.


I have a theory though. When I put the pin in at the flywheel, and the timing marks are all lined up, that is TDC on the exhaust stroke, right? Is that common for all Bosch VE pumps or just Land Rover?


I'm wondering if the tech might have set the flange 180 out, and if so, I guess there is no other way to deal with this other than to pull the pump and return it? Ugh.


This really sucks because I pulled the pump and brought it to the shop only for replacement of an o-ring that was leaking. They rebuilt the pump by mistake. Didn't charge me for it, but now I'm wishing they had left it the hell alone.
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  #4  
Old March 27th, 2014, 09:26 PM
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It should be tdc on the compression stroke for number one. The pump lift is set by the book and the keyway points at the number one injector pipe.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:00 AM
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I called the shop this morning and spoke with the tech. He said the pump is most likely 180 degrees off. He suggested rotating the pump 360 degrees and thought that would solve the issue.


If that's the case, I'm trying to think of how I could accomplish that without removing the pump. Obviously I can loosen the 3 bolts and move it a few degrees, but I don't know how I can spin it all the way around.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:46 AM
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You would have to set the timing belt "wrong" and guess at the correct location. Personally, I would want my money back and send it to someone qualified.... This could have destroyed your engine.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 12:42 PM
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I really don't see the potential for destroying the engine so long as the cam and the crank are timed properly in relation to one another, which they are.

He more or less told me that he could have put it together such that it was 180 degrees out, and he seemed very confident that all I would have to do is rotate the pump 360 degrees (with everything else staying in the same location) and I'd be good to go.

I would rather not remove the pump again and I certainly don't want to open up the timing case again. So, I'm considering removing the three bolts securing the gear to the pump flange, and then rotating the pump 360 while pushing the gear against the pump flange with my fingers to keep it from popping off (if that happens I'm screwed).

Think that will work? It makes sense to me anyway.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 01:13 PM
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If the injection timing had been in the wrong place (too far advanced), the engine would be damaged.

Basically, not knowing what he was doing....he could have timed it for any of the four cylinders. You time it by measuring the plunger lift. The plunger lifts for the injection of each cylinder. If he did not set it to the #1 cylinder then it could have been for any of the others.

Rotating the pump 360 degree will do nothing. It will be in the same place as it is now. That makes zero sense.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 01:17 PM
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Every revolution of the pump equals two revolutions of the crank. Each pump revolution injects to all four cylinders.

The guy that did the pump and is giving you advice has no clue.

What you could do is set TDC on the exhaust stroke of #1 and then set the timing belt. The cam mark will be 180 degrees off, so you would need to check that separate of the injection timing.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 01:57 PM
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Mike:
I would remove the valve cover to make it easy to verify from the valves opening and closing which cylinder should be receiving a charge of fuel.
Then I would remove the injection lines and rotate the engine to determine from the valves which cylinder is the one getting a charge of fuel.
Then compare your findings to the injection lines and determine if in fact the pump is out of time, 180 degrees off, or what have you.

Then you can decide a sound course of action.
This will prevent you from taking an unknown situation and creating another unknown situation.
And I advise you not to try to hold the pump gear with your fingers while performing work.
You are risking injury and possibly playing the Dutch boy with his finger in the dike...

We can only give advice, it's up to you to choose what to do with it.

And if you verify the pump timing internally is 180 out, send it back and have the shop set it up correctly or get a refund and send it to Blue Ridge Diesel in Salem, VA or someone that at least knows which end is up.

Also note: after timing a few dozen TDI engines, and understanding the process completely... it is possible to insert the pin in what you believe to be the correct hole through the gear and into the pump housing, but in fact have it in the wrong location, but jammed sucurely. Since you may have worked this scenario, I would also remove the radiator intercooler assembly and front cover to in fact see what you are working on. It is also possible to install the gear incorrectly as well. I don't remember exactly how, but fixed a 90 with what I think I remember was 2 of the 3 bolts through the gear and pump flange and the third screwed through the locking threads that are used to suspend the gear (when switching out the pump). All these scenarios had a perfectly good pump timed incorrectly preventing the engine from running.

Now for the bad pump scenario.
It is possible to have an IP that does not produce enough fuel pressure to start the engine, but will work when the engine has started. There are ways to start and briefly run the engine using gasoline fumes.
DO NOT use starting fluid.
We'll hold off explaining this last resort start up technique as it has to be done very very very very carefully.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Every revolution of the pump equals two revolutions of the crank. Each pump revolution injects to all four cylinders.

The guy that did the pump and is giving you advice has no clue.

What you could do is set TDC on the exhaust stroke of #1 and then set the timing belt. The cam mark will be 180 degrees off, so you would need to check that separate of the injection timing.


That makes sense. Not what I wanted to hear. Looks like I'll probably have to remove the pump. I think I've got one of those pump support tools so at least I won't have to open the case and re-time everything when I get it back.


Pulling the pump and having it timed properly appeals to me rather than trying to set it in a manner inconsistent with the timing marks. It is possible that this is what the tech was trying to tell me to do, and that I misunderstood (he may have meant turn the crank 360 degrees).


I like Robert's suggestion about pulling the valve cover and watching for the timing of the pump charge to the injector. That sounds like a good way to know for sure before I pull the pump off.
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  #12  
Old March 28th, 2014, 03:30 PM
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And he is right that you should double check that the pin is actually in the right place. Measure how much pin goes in. I have one marked at home and can check.
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  #13  
Old March 28th, 2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
And he is right that you should double check that the pin is actually in the right place. Measure how much pin goes in. I have one marked at home and can check.




Highly doubt that, but I will double check. That's the first thing I'll do. Hell maybe I failed to torque the bolts holding the timing gear to the pump flange, allowing it to slip. There's always a chance I may have done something dumb like that, I'm hoping so.


When I installed the pump I put the pin in, installed and then tensioned the timing belt, removed the pin, rotated the crank x2, re-inserted the pin, and tensioned the belt again. The pin went in fully both times.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 03:51 PM
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One more thing.
It is also possible your pump is good and timed properly and your engine is some how fuel starved.

You could always hook up a 12V electric pump with one end of the hose in a can of diesel and the outlet hooked to the lift pump to ensure proper fueling.

Also, had a guy tow his 110 all the way from OK to VA, only to find out his fuel shutoff wire had come loose from the solenoid and was preventing all fueling.

Just a few more scenarios before you start a tear down.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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Old March 28th, 2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
One more thing.
It is also possible your pump is good and timed properly and your engine is some how fuel starved.

You could always hook up a 12V electric pump with one end of the hose in a can of diesel and the outlet hooked to the lift pump to ensure proper fueling.

Also, had a guy tow his 110 all the way from OK to VA, only to find out his fuel shutoff wire had come loose from the solenoid and was preventing all fueling.

Just a few more scenarios before you start a tear down.
Thanks, I have observed fuel squirting (not dribbling) out of all 4 of the injectors when I loosen the fittings. And that was before I dragged it with another vehicle for a good distance.

That trick worked wonders with purging my 2.5na but brought no joy in this case.

I'll get busy this weekend and report back. I appreciate all the help here!
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Old March 29th, 2014, 05:42 PM
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Today I set the flywheel to TDC and the pin went in the pump just as it should. This isn't too hard because the pin gets inserted in line with the top of the pump, which is at about 11 o'clock position. Next I loosened #1 injector, and had an assistant watch while I turned the crank by hand. Fuel comes out of the #1 pipe when the hole that the pin goes into gets to the 11 o'clock position, so that seems right.


I then pulled the valve cover and had an assistant crank with the starter. I observed #1 pipe spurting just as both valves closed on #1. So that seems right too.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatblanket View Post
Today I set the flywheel to TDC and the pin went in the pump just as it should. This isn't too hard because the pin gets inserted in line with the top of the pump, which is at about 11 o'clock position. Next I loosened #1 injector, and had an assistant watch while I turned the crank by hand. Fuel comes out of the #1 pipe when the hole that the pin goes into gets to the 11 o'clock position, so that seems right.


I then pulled the valve cover and had an assistant crank with the starter. I observed #1 pipe spurting just as both valves closed on #1. So that seems right too.
OK am going to PM you my number to discuss, we'll get you running.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #18  
Old March 30th, 2014, 08:13 PM
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Thanks Robert. I put the Disco 200tdi pump on there and it started right up.


I'll be talking to the pump dude again tomorrow.


I think that timing may be part of the problem though, because on my old pump and the Disco pump the flange won't sit right where the pin goes in. It wants to be on either side, like it's in the middle of it's stroke. With the rebuilt one it was no issue to slip the pin right in.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 12:43 PM
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Just thought I'd update this in case anyone is interested.


So I took the pump back to the shop. They removed flange, re-set the timing, gave it back to me, said it should be fine. This time the pump was locked in the correct position so I was thinking I had a chance.


Last night I removed the Disco pump, installed the Defender pump, and tried to start. Got nothing.


I loosened pipe to #1 and it pushes fuel to #1 when the pump is 180 out.


So, this morning I took the pump back again. Spoke to the shop owner, who told me that #1 is top right when looking at the back of the pump. I advised I didn't know if that was correct or not, figured they would know.


Went to my office and pulled out a manual, sure enough top right is #4. Called shop and faxed page of manual to them for a visual aid. Gave them a plunger lift spec as well.


Have my fingers crossed that if I get it back today, I'll have it running tonight.


Moral to the story is that Bosch VE pumps aren't all the same, but some people in the biz will assume that they are. And I'm really good at swapping pumps out now.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 12:58 PM
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news flash...YOUR BOSCH SHOP SUX!!!! If I had to fit an IP pump 3 times in a week due to incompetance they would be tasting my shoe laces.
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