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  #21  
Old June 16th, 2016, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Check the valve lash... You can lose a valve cap for various reasons.

While running, crack loose each injector and see if killing fuel to one cylinder stops the noise. More likely an injection problem than a bottom end one.

If you lose a bearing on one of these, it is over. The pistons almost touch the head when everything is normal. You lose a bearing and the piston will slap into the head and it will be over. Maybe it happens, but I have not heard a bottom end go before.
uncle Doug mentioned once, that one of his 300 put a couple of rods thru the bottom end.
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  #22  
Old June 17th, 2016, 08:06 AM
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I cracked a valve once at 10k miles. Destroyed the piston, head and cylinder wall. I repaired it though. If you are losing fuel prime check your fuel pump as well. Is it supplying enough fuel to the injector pump?
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  #23  
Old June 17th, 2016, 09:11 AM
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http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ing-34473.html




What rod knock did to mine
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  #24  
Old June 17th, 2016, 09:35 AM
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ugh bad news. best of luck on the overhaul.
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  #25  
Old June 17th, 2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM13 View Post
In case they are the culprit, how many do you have? Love the hi output starter by the way...nice, robust starts this past winter.
We generally have 4 or 8 200TDI Injectors in stock.
Those 3.1 KW starters spin the engine like a sewing machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naplm00 View Post
Matthew, hoping that was a picture of your engine and not Gene's.
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  #26  
Old June 17th, 2016, 11:08 AM
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Ha Yea, that's mine after rod knock and then the big end bearing exploding
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  #27  
Old June 17th, 2016, 12:26 PM
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Excellent picture of a not so excellent scenario Matthew!

Gene. Any update?
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  #28  
Old June 17th, 2016, 02:52 PM
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Pack Lots of rags/paper towels around the injector connection before you loosen it!!!! High pressure fuel will blast out all over creation unless you do.
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  #29  
Old June 20th, 2016, 08:38 AM
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Thanks for the input guys. I was away for the weekend, going to check the injectors today and get a stethoscope on it too.
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  #30  
Old June 20th, 2016, 03:25 PM
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If there is a faulty injector what is going on that would cause the knock? Going to crack the pipes now and give it a listen.
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  #31  
Old June 20th, 2016, 03:26 PM
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If there is not a proper spray, or it injects at the wrong time or there is a combustion leak, would all casue these symptoms.
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  #32  
Old June 20th, 2016, 04:07 PM
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Ok, Just cracked all the injector seals. knocking noise definitely dissipates when #4 is cracked. Of course engine sounds different on 3 cylinders but do believe the culprit is there. Does that indicate bearing on piston 4 or bad #4 injector?? Wanted to put that query out there while checking valve clearances.
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  #33  
Old June 20th, 2016, 05:36 PM
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bearing, it was the reasoning behind the test, unload the cylinder. if you feel like continuing the diagnosis swap injector location, if the knock follows the cylinder (say swap injector 3 with 4 now 3 knocks) then its a bad injector. if the knock stays on cylinder regardless of injector location then of course it is worn bearings.

needless to suggest a bottom end overhaul at a minimum, if you find the cylinder continues to knock. if it was my engine, I would bite the bullet and do a complete overhaul.
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  #34  
Old June 20th, 2016, 05:52 PM
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Yeah, I'm also not 100% convinced it's rod knock. IMHO rod knock has a different sound. In my (limited) experience, when rod knock comes, it's virtually instantaneous - from pretty much inaudible to "oh my gosh what is that clacking noise." It also gets progressively worse very, very fast...measured in minutes, not hundreds of miles.
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  #35  
Old June 20th, 2016, 05:55 PM
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I pulled apart a 200 engine that had a knock. When I pulled the head it was obvious that compression had leaked between two cyls and that was the cause. Skimmed the head, installed a new gasket. Truck no longer knocked.
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  #36  
Old June 20th, 2016, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlosz View Post
bearing, it was the reasoning behind the test, unload the cylinder. if you feel like continuing the diagnosis swap injector location, if the knock follows the cylinder (say swap injector 3 with 4 now 3 knocks) then its a bad injector. if the knock stays on cylinder regardless of injector location then of course it is worn bearings.

needless to suggest a bottom end overhaul at a minimum, if you find the cylinder continues to knock. if it was my engine, I would bite the bullet and do a complete overhaul.
I'll switch the injectors around tomorrow, sure would be nice if that's the problem. Thanks for the info Carlos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Yeah, I'm also not 100% convinced it's rod knock. IMHO rod knock has a different sound. In my (limited) experience, when rod knock comes, it's virtually instantaneous - from pretty much inaudible to "oh my gosh what is that clacking noise." It also gets progressively worse very, very fast...measured in minutes, not hundreds of miles.
Granted I've only driven it about 6 miles home since I noticed it. Would have thought that would be plenty of time to self destruct though. Thanks for your thoughts Ed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
I pulled apart a 200 engine that had a knock. When I pulled the head it was obvious that compression had leaked between two cyls and that was the cause. Skimmed the head, installed a new gasket. Truck no longer knocked.
Doug, I checked the compression, all read between 410-420. Not saying it couldn't happen but the head, gasket were new 6 months ago. If the gasket was compromised would compression leaking between cylinders still give reading similar to above?

Valve caps look good (all new Turner's 2000 miles ago), clearances too. Oil pressure checked at filter and reading 55psi while revved.

I put he stethoscope probe along the block at each cylinder along both sides and just above the oil pan from below, not really knowing what healthy sounds like through that thing I couldn't discern anything alarming.
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  #37  
Old June 21st, 2016, 04:44 PM
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After sorting out the bit of fun pictured below I swapped injectors 3&4. Oddly when cracking inj 3 in the #4 cylinder position there is no real difference in the knock or even engine. It doesn't noticeably slow down revs or pick up when tightened. ???

Another symptom that may be related is the MPG, I used to get 25-26 around town(no traffic lights here) and that's decreased to 20-22 from the last few tanks I've monitored. Power wasn't great either now that I really think about it.

If not injector related, I assume the best way to diagnose would be to pull the oil pan and ladder frame if possible and have a look. It's a disco Tdi and the lower studs were missing from the bell housing when I picked it up.
How large of a PITA is it to replace the bearings from below as a stop gap while I build a fund for a Turner reman?
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  #38  
Old June 21st, 2016, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM13 View Post
After sorting out the bit of fun pictured below I swapped injectors 3&4. Oddly when cracking inj 3 in the #4 cylinder position there is no real difference in the knock or even engine. It doesn't noticeably slow down revs or pick up when tightened. ???

Another symptom that may be related is the MPG, I used to get 25-26 around town(no traffic lights here) and that's decreased to 20-22 from the last few tanks I've monitored. Power wasn't great either now that I really think about it.

If not injector related, I assume the best way to diagnose would be to pull the oil pan and ladder frame if possible and have a look. It's a disco Tdi and the lower studs were missing from the bell housing when I picked it up.
How large of a PITA is it to replace the bearings from below as a stop gap while I build a fund for a Turner reman?
it all depends on your mechanical ability, the diesel engine is built as a high performance engine thus there is no room for failure.
back in 98 or so, one of my semis blew a turbo, I was on the center lane of the highway when the smoke and loss of oil pressure begun. with in seconds I pulled over to the right lane and shoulder may have traveled 1/4 mile or so and killed engine.
upon repairs and restart the engine developed a knock, pulled bottom end and found a scored crank.....pulled crank only to find out it had developed a hairline crack only seen when magna fluxed.
since then I have not been too keen on quick fixes on diesel engines, they are not too forgiving.

you may try a bearing replacement just to buy you time, but it is just that. little borrowed time.
if you plan on future overhaul while on borrowed time and this repair fails you may run into expensive parts replacement. on the other hand, if you are borrowing time with this repair and your future plan is to replace the lump, by all means borrow time and when it goes it goes...
just my .02 based on past experience.
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  #39  
Old June 21st, 2016, 06:23 PM
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you are getting ahead of yourself and not posting complete details so its hard to comment.

First step, forget about the knock.

When you crack the line on an injector, it essentially shuts down that injector. Do this on all 4 injectors and note if any have little or no effect on the engine in comparison to the other ones.

if there is one or more injector that does not have any effect on the engine when you open the line, that means that injector (or cylinder) is effectively not doing anything in the first place and thus shutting it down didn't change anything.

If you identify one or more cylinders where cracking the line has no effect, then move the injector from that cylinder to another cylinder that did have some effect. If the problem follows the injector, then it is the injector that is the problem. Logically.

What happens when you crack injector 3 in cylinder 3?

Pulling the oil pan and ladder frame on the 200tdi you may as well remove the engine.

If your 200tdi is missing the bolts that hold the ladder frame to the flywheel housing then you may as well remove the engine anyway as that is a bodge job.

worn injectors can cause quite a racket.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GM13 View Post
After sorting out the bit of fun pictured below I swapped injectors 3&4. Oddly when cracking inj 3 in the #4 cylinder position there is no real difference in the knock or even engine. It doesn't noticeably slow down revs or pick up when tightened. ???

Another symptom that may be related is the MPG, I used to get 25-26 around town(no traffic lights here) and that's decreased to 20-22 from the last few tanks I've monitored. Power wasn't great either now that I really think about it.

If not injector related, I assume the best way to diagnose would be to pull the oil pan and ladder frame if possible and have a look. It's a disco Tdi and the lower studs were missing from the bell housing when I picked it up.
How large of a PITA is it to replace the bearings from below as a stop gap while I build a fund for a Turner reman?
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  #40  
Old June 21st, 2016, 08:53 PM
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I may well be getting ahead of myself, I get what you're saying about ruling out injectors, appreciate the suggestions. The missing flywheel bolts were tapped/installed when the clutch was done, they aren't studs but bolts threaded in from trans side. Sort of a bodge but at least they are there.

I hope to have some time tomorrow to switch all 4 of the injectors around. IIRC, inj 3 in cyl 3 when cracked did noticeably sound as if running on 3 cylinders.

Here is a "cracking" series with original injector #3 in cylinder 4 and vice versa:
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