200Tdi issues - opinions needed - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 11th, 2015, 10:24 PM
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200Tdi issues - opinions needed

I purchased a Defender 200Tdi from a forum vendor here about a year and a half ago. It's been part of an ongoing project which has just progressed to the point where I'm ready to get the engine running.

The engine was purchased as good condition, running, with a new timing belt kit fitted.

Today, I began taking the necessary steps to get the engine to run (it's currently installed in the project Series III). I wanted to be sure it turned freely, so I put a 30mm socket on the crank bolt and began to turn the engine clockwise (running direction) . It initially turned fine, but after less than one full rotation, it stopped suddenly and solidly - just as cyl #1 was approaching TDC.

I rotated the engine back counterclockwise, and it turned about 350* and then stopped solid again - just as cyl # 1 was approaching TDC again.

At this point it was apparent that this good condition, running 200Tdi was in fact neither.

I first removed the timing cover to make sure the new timing belt had been installed correctly. The timing marks would not line up, because I could not get cyl #1 to TDC (it was off by half a tooth on the crank pulley). But they looked OK.

Next I pulled the valve cover to check for any abnormalities in the valve train. Everything looked OK there as well. It was now becoming clear that something inside either cyl #1 or #4 was causing an interference, keeping the engine from turning over past TDC.

Off with it's head... 40 minutes later, this is what I found:


Cyl #1 at the top of photo


Close up of top of piston


Cylinder head close up

Cylinder # 1 is in really bad shape. There are some pits in the cylinder wall and a very bad rust ridge around the top. There is no way the engine ran in this condition, as promised when I bought it (remember it did not even turn over because the rust in the cylinder was so bad).

Granted I bought this from the vendor some time ago, but it has been stored inside ever since it arrived in the crate.

I have sent these photos directly to the vendor for a response, but I would like some opinions from those of you who may have seen something similar with a Tdi or who have rebuilt one.

Thanks all.

------ Follow up post added January 11th, 2015 10:30 PM ------

Also, there are some cooling passages in the block that are rusted shut but also seem to have globs of RTV in them - I can't imagine this is normal?

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  #2  
Old January 11th, 2015, 10:47 PM
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Does it rotate freely with the head off?

Does #1 come up fully?

Looks like water into #1 and sat for awhile.

Did you check for valve lash before pulling he head?
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  #3  
Old January 11th, 2015, 10:54 PM
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Yes it rotates freely with the head off. I did not check valve lash with feeler gauges. I did take the rocker shaft off and then try to rotate it and there was no change (still would not pass TDC).
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Old January 11th, 2015, 11:08 PM
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Is the sump off? I'd pop that off since you are this far into it and strip it down. Might be something going wrong on the bottom end. Oil jet blocking the rotation of the crank??

Sorry to hear about the bad purchase. Not fun at all.
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  #5  
Old January 11th, 2015, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
Is the sump off? I'd pop that off since you are this far into it and strip it down. Might be something going wrong on the bottom end. Oil jet blocking the rotation of the crank?? Sorry to hear about the bad purchase. Not fun at all.
You can't see anything with the pan off. The ladder frame is in the way and it can't be removed with the engine attached to the gearbox.
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  #6  
Old January 11th, 2015, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
Yes it rotates freely with the head off. I did not check valve lash with feeler gauges. I did take the rocker shaft off and then try to rotate it and there was no change (still would not pass TDC).
Then a piston is hitting something. Do any pistons stick higher than the head gasket? It is a very close tolerance. The pistons almost hit the head deck normally.
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  #7  
Old January 11th, 2015, 11:32 PM
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I am confident that it was the rust on the top of the piston that was causing the interference. There was probably 1/8" of rust debris there. It was compacting it firmly against the cylinder head - you can see the caked on rust stuck to the underside of the head.

At this point the question is how to reasonably fix it - I'm not expecting much support from the vendor based on other stories I have heard but we will see.

I'm sure that if I clean out the rust, lightly remove the ridge from the top of the cylinder wall, and put it back together with a new head gasket that it will run... the question is how well? I'm concerned about having very low compression and a lot of blowby into the crank case.
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  #8  
Old January 11th, 2015, 11:39 PM
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Yep. I would be worried about the rings as well. Might as well try as it is not much work and little cost. Otherwise you are doing the bottom end. Not a big job but a pain in the ass.
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  #9  
Old January 12th, 2015, 10:27 AM
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Upon closer inspection this morning, there's evidence that the headgasket was failing, causing water to seep into the cylinder.

I've been in contact with the vendor, and they are indicating that they will not do anything to resolve the problem or stand behind their business.
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  #10  
Old January 12th, 2015, 10:41 AM
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So, why all the secrecy?

Name and shame.



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  #11  
Old January 12th, 2015, 10:42 AM
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So, why all the secrecy?

Name and shame.



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This^^^
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  #12  
Old January 12th, 2015, 10:51 AM
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I will - right now it's in their hands with how this is handled.
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  #13  
Old January 12th, 2015, 10:58 AM
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Seems like maybe the RTV blocked some passages and cause overheating leading to the head gasket failure?

How does the wall of the bore look? Is the timing belt at least new as advertised?

The engine looks pretty dirty in the pics, not like anything that's been through any kind of reconditioning whatsoever.

That said, I would clean it up as best as you can, check the head for flatness and put it all back together assuming everything else is "ok"

Hope the original price wasn't too exorbitant.

Makes me want to go outside and make sure my 109's engine still turns over...



Quote:
Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
------ Follow up post added January 11th, 2015 10:30 PM ------

Also, there are some cooling passages in the block that are rusted shut but also seem to have globs of RTV in them - I can't imagine this is normal?

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  #14  
Old January 12th, 2015, 11:08 AM
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My thoughts exactly Dave. Looks like there was really poor (practically zero) coolant flow into the head with those gummed up passages.

The timing belt kit was new as advertised, although the case was globbed back together pretty messily with RTV.

Original purchase price was $3000 including freight to my shop. It was shipped to me direct from England.
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  #15  
Old January 12th, 2015, 11:28 AM
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Adam:
I am sorry you have had these issues, but your caution has saved you trouble in the long run.
When water gets into cylinders, it forms a paste that will harden as it dries and cause the type of issues you have discovered.

If it were my engine, I would pull it all the way down and have the block and head cleaned to open up all the passages.
If the cylinders are not severely worn, you can probably clean them up and have everything copasetic.
When you remove No1 piston, you can check the rings to make sure they are not stuck and if they are soak them in penetrating oil and try and free them without breaking them, which is easier said than done.
I doubt the connecting rod is bent from being hydro-locked, but you'll be able to check it as well.

Since the head is off, it's a good time to check the bridges between the valves for cracks, a common 200TDI problem.
I use to avoid resurfacing TDI heads because of the factory warnings, but have found even new heads are not true, so the current SOP is to have all the heads resurfaced. Then you know they are true.
Since the head bolts are the stretch type for multiple torquings, it wouldn't hurt to renew the head bolts as well.

It could also be a good time to have the injectors pop tested, or invest in a pop tester if you plan to do your own nozzle replacement.
There are some Mercedes forums where people have made their own using a modified hydraulic jack.

The TDI bottom ends are generally pretty robust, so I have my fingers crossed that all will be good with your 200TDI with only minimal disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly.

Keep us posted as your engine goes back together, and good luck!
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  #16  
Old January 12th, 2015, 11:48 AM
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Send the head out to be cleaned and have it checked for cracks between the valves (replace the valves) also look for cracks around the injector and glow plug.
Clean out the water passages, use air and water, then bolt it all back up and flush the shit out of it. Some guy's use CLR, some plain water, some use the Cummins stuff to get the rest of the crap out of it. Replace the water pump after you flush it out.

Not to hard to figure out who the vendor is...
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  #17  
Old January 12th, 2015, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Yep. I would be worried about the rings as well. Might as well try as it is not much work and little cost. Otherwise you are doing the bottom end. Not a big job but a pain in the ass.
Looks like the ladder frame is coming out anyways...

I would ask for a refund from this vendor because this engine is going to need a rebuild. Unless your OCD is far less than mine
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  #18  
Old January 12th, 2015, 12:06 PM
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Looks like the ladder frame is coming out anyways...

I would ask for a refund from this vendor because this engine is going to need a rebuild. Unless your OCD is far less than mine
Your right…rebuild it now
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  #19  
Old January 12th, 2015, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
.
I would ask for a refund from this vendor because this engine is going to need a rebuild. Unless your OCD is far less than mine
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post
Your right…rebuild it now
x2

I wouldnt rebuild a thing or pay anyone to rebuild a thing.

He paid for a running motor; ready to drop in.

He did not get what he paid for.

.
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  #20  
Old January 12th, 2015, 12:15 PM
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I've messaged the vendor and suggested that we could either exchange this engine complete for a (proven) good running unit, or this one would be repaired at a machine shop and all costs would be covered. I'm waiting for a response now.
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