2.8 TGV Pilot Bearing - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old April 2nd, 2014, 04:35 PM
andyrad
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2.8 TGV Pilot Bearing

I have the transmission out for a clutch renewal and I figured I might as well replace the pilot bearing while I'm in there. The engine is a 2.8 TGV with a 242mm clutch into an R380. The question I cannot find an answer to is "Is this the same Pilot Bearing as on a 300 tdi?" If not any idea what a good replacement part would be? I can pull it out with my fingers and I think that is not a great sign.

The original engine was a 3.9 V8 and I dont have any documentaion on what was installed when the engine was swapped. I would have been wrong to order the clutch before I had it in my hands as it is a HD clutch plate, not the standard that I would have thought from a 300 tdi. I had a horrible squeal pulling up to a light when I depresssed the clutch and the clutch was slipping a bit under harder acceleration. Could have been a little air in the line or a poorly adjusted pedal but I thought better get my hands dirty and see what I've got in there. Happy to see that the frame and everything else is rock solid.
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  #2  
Old April 2nd, 2014, 04:44 PM
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I don't know the answer to your question, but it would be good to first confirm that a 300TDI version R380 is in there.... A V8 unit has an input shaft that will "work" but does not engage properly to the pilot bearing. Does the inside diameter of the existing pilot bearing match the diameter of the nose of the input shaft?
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 04:51 PM
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John, I'll check that out tonight when I get home.

ps. I ended up selling the 110 you test drove with me when I was seeking your input on the front locker. Kaiser ended up admitting that those lockers dont work well with manual transmissions. Found that out after I sold it and I'm sorry I did. Now it's on to another 90 project.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 07:07 PM
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I had this same question when I replaced my clutch earlier this year. I asked M&D, and they told me the brass pilot bushing on the flywheel does not need to be replaced. I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that you have an M&D flywheel.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 11:23 PM
andyrad
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So the shaft diameter is 0.875" and the ID of the pilot bearing is 0.900". I would say significantly loose. How should the fit be?

Also see the visible face of the bearing was riding on the centre of the clutch. Is that correct? I put the two together and they were definitely rubbing. Maybe that was a cause of the clutch slipping, the bearing holding the clutch a few tenths away from the flywheel at the centre.

When I look closer at this bearing I think they turned it themselves.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 11:29 PM
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Better photo.
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  #7  
Old April 3rd, 2014, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
I had this same question when I replaced my clutch earlier this year. I asked M&D, and they told me the brass pilot bushing on the flywheel does not need to be replaced. I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that you have an M&D flywheel.
I don't think I have an MD flywheel however I do think they did supply some of the parts. The pilot is not what I am seeing online for what it should look like. Most look like a brass sleeve. MD claims their kits come with a special adaptor bushing to do the job. I just hope they can help me because there is no way this is going back in there with 25 thou clearance between the input shaft and bearing. I read on the Novak site that it should be 2-3 thou max. I didn't realize how important this little guy is and I really don't want to do this again or have a failure 100 miles into the Rockies.
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  #8  
Old April 3rd, 2014, 01:37 AM
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25 thou really isn't much since it need to be divided by 2 = 12.5 thou on each side of the shaft. I seriously doubt the fit could be 2-3 thou max, you'd never get the alignment of the pilot shaft straight enough for assembly insertion.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 07:42 AM
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FYI. here is the conversation I had with David Ashcroft last year about replacing my R380 before I went back to M&D:

Dave Ashcroft: Hi,is this engine already fitted ? the gearbox you have is a V8 type 60A do you want another one like this or a TDi one ?
Me: just talked to martyn at m&d. he said stick with exact same. so V8 it is
David Ashcroft: ok, difference is the crank spigot bush diameter



I think the only way you are going to get this right with confidence is to figure out what flywheel you have and what transmission you have. M&D makes their own flywheel and they own brass bushing for it, so you might have LR part no's, M&D parts, or mix of both if the conversion was done with a PO.

Good luck
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 08:01 AM
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V8 R380 with custom adapter???

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyrad View Post
I have the transmission out for a clutch renewal and I figured I might as well replace the pilot bearing ...
Sounds like you have the V8 R380 adapted to the 2.8TGV.
Looks like this setup uses a special 1 off manufactured pilot bush that is very different from the 300TDI stock unit.
You can verify by posting a picture of the belhousing along with the back of the engine showing the flywheel.

We just finished a similar prototype to put a 200/300TDI into a manual Disco and found the same pilot bearing issue.
Instead of making a 1 off pilot bushing, we are manufacturing a steel adapter sleeve that holds the stock Land Rover pilot bushing, but haven't yet installed the pieces yet.
This is similar to what we did for the Isuzu 4JB1-T and the flywheel for the Mercedes OM617 that both use the stock Land Rover pilot bushing.
We are still waiting on some bits for the Disco 200/300 kit that are still at the machine shop and are still working through the Isuzu 4JB1-T conversion so haven't had time to convert a Disco yet.
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  #11  
Old April 3rd, 2014, 09:29 AM
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a picture of your flywheel will help clarify if it's an M&D or TDI flywheel.
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  #12  
Old April 3rd, 2014, 09:59 AM
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I thought the V8 input shaft is not just a smaller pilot bearing (3/4" versus 7/8"??), but also a little shorter. So he clutch spline engagement is not correct unless a custom flywheel was used. What is the spline count?
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 06:31 PM
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There are 23 splines on the shaft. Pic of flywheel and bell housing with shaft attached.

Also at this point I would like to thank all of you for your input. I figured I was going to get into a can of worms when I opened this up and I love a good challenge of gathering information to put it all together right.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 08:45 PM
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That belhousing is 300TDI style, not V8.
So the back of the 2.8TGV looks different from the 200/300TDI.
That pilot bush must be unique to the application.
While I am not experienced with the 2.8TGV, there are people who frequent this board that can provide better advice.

Either way you need to source another pilot bush or alternately:
You could have a machine shop turn out a steel housing that takes the stock TDI pilot bush.
Steel on steel can be held with locktight while the bushing can be removed and replaced in the future.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 09:57 PM
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23 spline is V8. So there is hopefully a custom flywheel in there to adapt the V8 input shaft to the TDI correctly. If so, you would think it would use a V8 pilot bearing. If not,you have a shaft that will not engage the clutch and pilot bearing properly. I would measure engagement length carefully.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 10:20 PM
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John, I assume by engagement you mean how deep the shaft goes into the pilot bearing. I will try and get some drop measurements and calculations this weekend but will have to fashion a suitable straight edge. If the measurements do not have to be as exact as the shaft to bearing clearance I will just use a measuring tape.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 11:17 PM
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Yes. I don't know the exact details but recall that the length is not quite enough and this included the spline engagement to the clutch. I could be wrong but this is what I seem to recall.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 11:21 PM
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http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ad.php?t=19084
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Old April 4th, 2014, 12:36 AM
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John, I don't think I'm in that situation. From looking at the input shaft I can see brass on the beveled end of the splines which would line up with the flaring of the ID on the bearing. I think they actually touched at some point and since the centre hub of the friction plate wore a channel in the bearing as well I have to assume the clutch was fully engaged on the splines of the shaft. My goal now is to do the drop checks and see just how far the shaft goes into the rear of the crank with the bushing installed. My comment at the beginning of this particular post leads me to believe this is a redundant check but good for confirmation. I think I need to be at least 3/8" engaged with the shaft into the bearing.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 04:35 AM
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When I bought my motor, I was seriously considering purchasing a 2.8 block from M&D. I was about to pull the trigger and then I read a thread where Mark said that he would purchase a three hundy if he had it to do over again. This swayed me and I bought a 300Tdi. Threads like this make me glad that I did. You 2.8 guys are brave.
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