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  #1  
Old November 7th, 2013, 05:39 PM
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2.5 NAD questions

Does the 2.5 natural share the rear seal and clutch cover alum casting designs with
the 200tdi ?
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  #2  
Old November 7th, 2013, 06:03 PM
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Rear seal shows to be the same for both, ERR2532, superseded from ERR1535.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 06:09 PM
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I'm more concerned about the aluminum seal holder. I guess I should spend some time with my parts books. Was hoping someone knew the fast easy answer.
Looking to mate a 300 to an lt77 and wondering if the requisite parts are on the back of the existing 2.5
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  #4  
Old November 7th, 2013, 06:11 PM
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I'm more of an arm-chair roverer, web-wheeler at the moment, especially with Defenders.
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  #5  
Old November 7th, 2013, 08:48 PM
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The 300 flywheel housing should bolt up to the LT77 bellhousing.

The 4 cylinder bellhousing bolt pattern is almost exactly the same from Series II 2.25 petrol and diesel all the way up through 300tdi. You can bolt a 300tdi to a series 4 cylinder gearbox without an adapter.

Where the flywheel housings differ is in how they attach to the block and also how they do or don't capture the rear main seal.

IMO best to use the flywheel housing/rear main seal that came with the engine you are using. You can also cut out a big D shape in the early housing so you can still use the 300tdi rear main seal.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 09:58 PM
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Dave it has to do with mainshaft spacing not the bolt pattern, Everything I have ever read about 300 to 77 gear box swaps is that you have to swap the rear seal holder and clutch cover from a 200 onto the 300 in order for it to work. The truck in question has a 2.5 and what I;m trying to determine is whether the 2.5 shares those part numbers in common with a 200.
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  #7  
Old November 8th, 2013, 09:45 AM
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That is pure baloney. 1st of all, the "rear seal holder and clutch cover" you refer to is what the factory calls the flywheel housing. Unless you are referring to the clutch pressure plate which is sometimes called a cover and has nothing to do with the gearbox really and are identical between 200tdi and 300 and I think maybe even SIII and the early 90/110 4 cylinder trucks.

SO...flywheel housings, right?

They are all different, and for best results, use the one that came with your motor. They are all dimensionally identical in the pattern of the upper six (eight?) bolts that secure it to the block, the diameter and bolt pattern (with some exceptions) of the mounting ring for the trans bellhousing, and the front-to-back depth of the casting (mounting surface to mounting surface).

However, there are differences in how the rear main seal fits and how Land Rover intedned for them to continue sealing for any reasonable period of time. The 2.25 5 bearing and 2.5 flywheel housings Were iddentical to the old 3 bearing series versions except for the starter mounting bolts pattern and the rear main seal setup with the rear main seal now mounted into the flywheel housing before installation. The whole shebang then got bolted to the engine by the six or eight upper bolts. End of story.

The 200tdi flywheel housing uses the same rear main seal arrangement and the same upper bolt patter, but LR decided to add two big dowels in the middle and four bolts along the bottom to secure the flywheel housing to the ladder frame stiffener sandwiched between the block and the oil pan. These four bolts also provide clamping force to keep the lower half of the flywheel housing tight up against the block. Without these four bolts, the torque of the Tdi is enough to flex the setup and results in leakage galore. (witness Neil's old engine that was missing these bolts and was an oily mess). If you look at the pattern of sealant that is on the flywheel housing to block gasket for the 200tdi you will see a horizontal line below the rear main seal, that is not for show, it is there to keep the oil that is behind the gasket from draining out between the block and the flywheel housing.

Last but not least, the 300tdi did away with all that stupid crap and uses a rear main seal that is independent of the flywheel housing. It comes in its own alloy housing that bolts to the block, just like Volvo started doing back in the mid 60's. Welcome to the party, lol. The 300tdi flywheel housing does not have the lower bolts to attach it to the engine block like the 200tdi as it does not have the ladder frame stiffener inside the block.

So, if you try to use a 200tdi flywheel housing on a 300tdi, you will get a leak because there is no way to add the lower bolts to securely clamp the gasket between the flywheel housing and the block. If you use a 2.5 flywheel housing, you will have the same problem. Just use the 300tdi shiz, you will probably need to drill and tap a few places and to move a few studs. But, it will work. Clutch and input shaft splines etc will be fine. The difference is something like half a millimeter. If a 300tdi can bolt to a series gearbox and work it can definitely work with an LT77. After all, LT77 works with a series engine. This is about as plug and play as you can get on an engine swap.

Now, I know you're too impatient to read all that. So, good luck with your big ass Exxon Valdez/Deepwater Horizon oil spill.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Dave it has to do with mainshaft spacing not the bolt pattern, Everything I have ever read about 300 to 77 gear box swaps is that you have to swap the rear seal holder and clutch cover from a 200 onto the 300 in order for it to work. The truck in question has a 2.5 and what I;m trying to determine is whether the 2.5 shares those part numbers in common with a 200.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
That is pure baloney. 1st of all, the "rear seal holder and clutch cover" you refer to is what the factory calls the flywheel housing. Unless you are referring to the clutch pressure plate which is sometimes called a cover and has nothing to do with the gearbox really and are identical between 200tdi and 300 and I think maybe even SIII and the early 90/110 4 cylinder trucks.

SO...flywheel housings, right?

They are all different, and for best results, use the one that came with your motor. They are all dimensionally identical in the pattern of the upper six (eight?) bolts that secure it to the block, the diameter and bolt pattern (with some exceptions) of the mounting ring for the trans bellhousing, and the front-to-back depth of the casting (mounting surface to mounting surface).

However, there are differences in how the rear main seal fits and how Land Rover intedned for them to continue sealing for any reasonable period of time. The 2.25 5 bearing and 2.5 flywheel housings Were iddentical to the old 3 bearing series versions except for the starter mounting bolts pattern and the rear main seal setup with the rear main seal now mounted into the flywheel housing before installation. The whole shebang then got bolted to the engine by the six or eight upper bolts. End of story.

The 200tdi flywheel housing uses the same rear main seal arrangement and the same upper bolt patter, but LR decided to add two big dowels in the middle and four bolts along the bottom to secure the flywheel housing to the ladder frame stiffener sandwiched between the block and the oil pan. These four bolts also provide clamping force to keep the lower half of the flywheel housing tight up against the block. Without these four bolts, the torque of the Tdi is enough to flex the setup and results in leakage galore. (witness Neil's old engine that was missing these bolts and was an oily mess). If you look at the pattern of sealant that is on the flywheel housing to block gasket for the 200tdi you will see a horizontal line below the rear main seal, that is not for show, it is there to keep the oil that is behind the gasket from draining out between the block and the flywheel housing.

Last but not least, the 300tdi did away with all that stupid crap and uses a rear main seal that is independent of the flywheel housing. It comes in its own alloy housing that bolts to the block, just like Volvo started doing back in the mid 60's. Welcome to the party, lol. The 300tdi flywheel housing does not have the lower bolts to attach it to the engine block like the 200tdi as it does not have the ladder frame stiffener inside the block.

So, if you try to use a 200tdi flywheel housing on a 300tdi, you will get a leak because there is no way to add the lower bolts to securely clamp the gasket between the flywheel housing and the block. If you use a 2.5 flywheel housing, you will have the same problem. Just use the 300tdi shiz, you will probably need to drill and tap a few places and to move a few studs. But, it will work. Clutch and input shaft splines etc will be fine. The difference is something like half a millimeter. If a 300tdi can bolt to a series gearbox and work it can definitely work with an LT77. After all, LT77 works with a series engine. This is about as plug and play as you can get on an engine swap.

Now, I know you're too impatient to read all that. So, good luck with your big ass Exxon Valdez/Deepwater Horizon oil spill.

You know me well Dave. I read your blustery dissertation. Trying to plan and engine swap for a friend with a tithonus. He's on the fence as to which to go with 200 or 300. So you maintain a 300, after switching engine mount brackets over from the 2.5nad will bolt in with some drilling and tapping ?
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  #9  
Old November 8th, 2013, 10:11 AM
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Yes. Regardless of how it sits in the chassis. Totally unrelated. Though, if he wants to not cut and weld new mounts on the chassis, he will have to do something about the oil filter mount as it will prevent use of the RH bracket off the 2.5nad block. He would have to fab a bracket, there is a thread on the web somewhere, maybe LR4x4. But, pretty easy to weld a couple mounts to the chassis. For true bolt in, use a 200tdi. 300 he will need to figure out custom pipework for the rad, intercooler, oil cooler, PS, intake, and exhaust. (that is if he uses his existing transmission)

clear as mud yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
So you maintain a 300, after switching engine mount brackets over from the 2.5nad will bolt in with some drilling and tapping ?
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Old November 8th, 2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
Yes. Regardless of how it sits in the chassis. Totally unrelated. Though, if he wants to not cut and weld new mounts on the chassis, he will have to do something about the oil filter mount as it will prevent use of the RH bracket off the 2.5nad block. He would have to fab a bracket, there is a thread on the web somewhere, maybe LR4x4. But, pretty easy to weld a couple mounts to the chassis. For true bolt in, use a 200tdi. 300 he will need to figure out custom pipework for the rad, intercooler, oil cooler, PS, intake, and exhaust. (that is if he uses his existing transmission)

clear as mud yet?
any fabrication would fall on me so no issue. Know the ropes on 200. Truck is lhd
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Old November 8th, 2013, 12:00 PM
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I need pictures or an exploded parts diagram to follow this shit.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 12:59 PM
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Has anyone actually seen a 300TDI installed with a short bellhousing into a LHD truck? I really doubt it is possible.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Has anyone actually seen a 300TDI installed with a short bellhousing into a LHD truck? I really doubt it is possible.
Hi about 200tdi with 300tdi manifolds?
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Old November 8th, 2013, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
Hi about 200tdi with 300tdi manifolds?
Sorry? Are you saying you have seen a 200TDI with a short bellhousing and 300TDI manifolds installed in a LHD Defender? If so, with which timing case as I believe this also impacts clearances.
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  #15  
Old November 8th, 2013, 05:47 PM
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I understand this is a different transmission but a stumpy r380 is a direct replacement for a lt77. So it seems like it might help.
Per Dave Ashcroft:
I have a short bellhousing R380 on a 200 TDi engine and want to fit it to a 300 TDi engine, will it fit ? There are 2 ways to do this, most of the bolt holes will line up but there are some at the bottom which do not, you can drill and tap 2 of them but not all of them, so you cannot fit all the bolts, the other option is to fit the 200 TDi clutch cover housing and main bearing seal to the 300 engine, this will allow you to use all the bolt holes.

He doesn't say LHD or RHD.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 06:40 PM
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yep- just an additional expense.

------ Follow up post added November 8th, 2013 06:43 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Sorry? Are you saying you have seen a 200TDI with a short bellhousing and 300TDI manifolds installed in a LHD Defender? If so, with which timing case as I believe this also impacts clearances.
Oh yeah. In my brothers 110, formerly a 2.5 petrol, we installed a disco 200 engine and because he wanted to convert to lhd we also switched on the 300 manifolds. Aside from a custom high pressure side power steering hose all oe parts and has worked flawlessly for 5 years.
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